Kings of Leon

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

Exactly.

In general, I have no problem with people discussing the UPCI in a negative light. In many cases, I'm very understanding because I have personal knowledge of where the person is coming from and what they have been through. Or perhaps I've experienced some of the same myself.

I'm not stupid. I know the UPC isn't perfect. And I'm definitely not a "stick your head in the sand" type of person.

But there is a huge difference between constructive criticism and/or seeking honest answers and just wanting some hot topic to gossip about and/or seeking to feed ones own personal grudge.

LadyRev, if you experienced something that personally hurt you wouldn't you want to help others get away from the same thing. Yes, I learned a lot in the UPC and was there for 27 years but I wouldn't want to go back however leaving was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I know there are others who are trying to find answers too and if this forum can support them out of their situation then that is a good thing. Many won't have to leave their church or the organization but they can at least learn enough to help them have a healthy relationship with Christ.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

The reason why you can paint the whole organization a certain way is because the doctrine of the UPC is so different that other Christian denominations. The doctrine and subculture resulting from the doctrine is part of the whole organization.

Yes, I believe that their are certain bad experiences but I believe that a lot of the problems come from an incorrect teaching of the gospel. You can compare other denominations and groups who have gotten away from the gospel of Christ and you see the exact same issues in these groups that are plaguing the UPC/Oneness movement.

Acts 2:38 is a great message but it is not the gospel. I truly would love to see everyone filled with the holy spirit and baptized in Jesus name but not at the expense of the gospel. The holiness movement, charismatics, word of faith, prosperity gospel, Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons, JW, all faced and are facing the consequences of not placing enough emphasis on the foundation of Jesus Christ and simplicity of the gospel. What happens is folks start to put their faith in something other than Christ.

DG, Can you guess who wrote this:

We are not saved by works in the sense of earning, meriting, or purchasing salvation by good works. However, the grace of God will lead to good works and holiness of life. After Ephesians 2:8-9 emphatically teaches salvation by grace and not works, the next verse continues, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them:" God gives us grace expressly to enable us to produce good works. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work" (II Corinthians 9:8). God's grace has come to show us how to live righteous, holy lives and to give us power to do so. "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).

Grace does not give license to sin. "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid" (Romans 6:1-2). "Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Romans 6:15). On the contrary, grace makes the power of the Spirit available to us. If we follow the Spirit, we can fulfill all the righteousness that the law of Moses demanded but could not give (Romans 8:3-4).

In sum, God's grace brings salvation as a free gift, including the power to live righteously. Although we cannot earn the gift of salvation, once we receive it our lives will change and we will begin to do good works as a result. If we do not manifest righteous and godly attributes, then we are not letting God's saving grace work in us. We cannot separate grace from a life of devotion and obedience to Christ.


If the doctrine of grace teaches that God does all the work in man's salvation, are all men automatically saved? This cannot be true because many will receive eternal damnation at the last judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). If the doctrine of grace teaches that man cannot assist God in providing salvation, does God unconditionally choose certain ones to be saved regardless of their own attitudes and responses? This cannot be true either because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). If He chose some unconditionally, His fairness would cause Him to choose all. The doctrine of faith helps us understand the answer to both of the above questions.

Faith is the means by which man accepts and receives God's saving grace (Romans 3:21-31; Ephesians 2:8). Man cannot help God in providing salvation, but man does have the responsibility to accept or reject what God offers. Man's response to God in accepting His work of salvation is called faith. Thus faith is the channel through which God's grace comes to man. Both God's grace and man faith are necessary for salvation. "Without faith it is impossible to please him [God]" (Hebrews 11:6). One Protestant author stated, "That man must do something to take advantage of God's provision of salvation through Christ does no violence to the doctrine of grace. Theologically as well as etymologically there are two aspects of charis (grace): unmerited provision and thankful reception." [3]

However, we must avoid saying that salvation comes partly from man. When man accepts grace the credit belongs wholly to God and the power of His grace, but when man rejects grace the blame falls wholly upon man and his unbelief. Thus we affirm both salvation by grace alone and the responsibility of man to accept salvation.

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

The church is Bunch and Breeze??

LOLROTF! Oh boy...the church is in trouble LOL!

[aak1972]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

LOLROTF! Oh boy...the church is in trouble LOL!

LOL yea please pray!!

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

DG, Can you guess who wrote this:
We are not saved by works in the sense of earning, meriting, or purchasing salvation by good works. However, the grace of God will lead to good works and holiness of life. After Ephesians 2:8-9 emphatically teaches salvation by grace and not works, the next verse continues, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them:" God gives us grace expressly to enable us to produce good works. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work" (II Corinthians 9:8). God's grace has come to show us how to live righteous, holy lives and to give us power to do so. "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).

Grace does not give license to sin. "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid" (Romans 6:1-2). "Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Romans 6:15). On the contrary, grace makes the power of the Spirit available to us. If we follow the Spirit, we can fulfill all the righteousness that the law of Moses demanded but could not give (Romans 8:3-4).

In sum, God's grace brings salvation as a free gift, including the power to live righteously. Although we cannot earn the gift of salvation, once we receive it our lives will change and we will begin to do good works as a result. If we do not manifest righteous and godly attributes, then we are not letting God's saving grace work in us. We cannot separate grace from a life of devotion and obedience to Christ.


If the doctrine of grace teaches that God does all the work in man's salvation, are all men automatically saved? This cannot be true because many will receive eternal damnation at the last judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). If the doctrine of grace teaches that man cannot assist God in providing salvation, does God unconditionally choose certain ones to be saved regardless of their own attitudes and responses? This cannot be true either because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). If He chose some unconditionally, His fairness would cause Him to choose all. The doctrine of faith helps us understand the answer to both of the above questions.

Faith is the means by which man accepts and receives God's saving grace (Romans 3:21-31; Ephesians 2:8). Man cannot help God in providing salvation, but man does have the responsibility to accept or reject what God offers. Man's response to God in accepting His work of salvation is called faith. Thus faith is the channel through which God's grace comes to man. Both God's grace and man faith are necessary for salvation. "Without faith it is impossible to please him [God]" (Hebrews 11:6). One Protestant author stated, "That man must do something to take advantage of God's provision of salvation through Christ does no violence to the doctrine of grace. Theologically as well as etymologically there are two aspects of charis (grace): unmerited provision and thankful reception." [3]

However, we must avoid saying that salvation comes partly from man. When man accepts grace the credit belongs wholly to God and the power of His grace, but when man rejects grace the blame falls wholly upon man and his unbelief. Thus we affirm both salvation by grace alone and the responsibility of man to accept salvation.

My guess would be Bernard or it might be Seagraves.

Yes, I realize that these guys have to say we are saved by grace through faith or they would have no credibility at all in the academic world but if you closely examine the whole of Bernard's teaching there is no doubt that he contradicts himself.

He will say all day long that we are justified by faith but then say that the way we accept that faith is through the holy spirit, meaning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues and water baptism only in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.


Here is a link to a chart that clearly explains Bernard's view of Justification contrasted with Orthodox Christianity. http://inchristalone.org/CompareBernardJust.html

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

LadyRev, if you experienced something that personally hurt you wouldn't you want to help others get away from the same thing. Yes, I learned a lot in the UPC and was there for 27 years but I wouldn't want to go back however leaving was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I know there are others who are trying to find answers too and if this forum can support them out of their situation then that is a good thing. Many won't have to leave their church or the organization but they can at least learn enough to help them have a healthy relationship with Christ.

Actually, I do try to help people. But I don't always believe leaving is the best thing for all people. However, if someone chooses to leave, I will still be there to help them in any way I can, if they want help that is. Sometimes all I can do is be a friend or an ear.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

LadyRev, if you experienced something that personally hurt you wouldn't you want to help others get away from the same thing. Yes, I learned a lot in the UPC and was there for 27 years but I wouldn't want to go back however leaving was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I know there are others who are trying to find answers too and if this forum can support them out of their situation then that is a good thing. Many won't have to leave their church or the organization but they can at least learn enough to help them have a healthy relationship with Christ.

It sounds as if you feel it is God's will for you to try to "help" people to "get away" from the UPC. Is that the case?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

My guess would be Bernard or it might be Seagraves.

Yes, I realize that these guys have to say we are saved by grace through faith or they would have no credibility at all in the academic world but if you closely examine the whole of Bernard's teaching there is no doubt that he contradicts himself.

He will say all day long that we are justified by faith but then say that the way we accept that faith is through the holy spirit, meaning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues and water baptism only in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.


Here is a link to a chart that clearly explains Bernard's view of Justification contrasted with Orthodox Christianity. http://inchristalone.org/CompareBernardJust.html

Why don't you read Bernard for yourself and make up your own mind instead of having Gillispie do that for you? I don't agree with everything DB says but I see how his view fits all the pieces of the puzzle together better than the evangelical view which is found on the In Christ Alone site.

Examples of Insufficient Belief

The Scripture gives many examples of people who had some degree of faith in Christ but who were not saved. This demonstrates that a person can have a mental belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior and yet not obey Him, rely upon Him, or commit himself to Him to the point of salvation.

For example, many people in Israel believed on Jesus when they saw the miracles He performed. However, Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew their hearts. They had not fully committed themselves to Him as Lord of their lives (John 2:23-25).

Similarly, many of the Jewish religious leaders believed on Jesus but they did not confess Him for fear of being put out of the synagogues. They loved the praise of men more than the praise of God (John 12:42-43). God did not accept them because they did not act upon their belief.

According to Jesus, some people do great miracles in His name, yet if they refuse to do God's will, they will not be saved (Matthew 7:21-27). They will have enough faith for miracles but not enough faith to obey God's Word in all things. They will have faith but not saving faith.

The Samaritans believed Philip's preaching and were baptized, yet they did not receive the Spirit of God until Peter and John came (Acts 8:12-17). Simon the magician was one who believed and was baptized, but he later tried to buy spiritual power and blessings with money (Acts 8:18-19). Peter rebuked him and told him to repent of his wickedness, saying, "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God… For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity" (Acts 8:21-23). He was not saved at this point, even though he had believed to some extent.

Even the devils believe in one God (James 2:19), which is more than some do. Not only do they believe, but they confess Jesus to be the Son of God (Matthew 8:29). Despite their belief and confession, however, they do not have saving faith.

In each of these cases, there was mental understanding and assent, but there was also a lack of total commitment to Jesus and obedience to His Word. The people possessed a degree of faith but not enough to bring about salvation. Saving faith, then, is inseparably linked with obedience. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...al/New-Top.htm

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by aak1972

And it was a general statement. Were you in an apostolic youth group and if you were what pecentage of them are still active in an apostolic church? Mine is, just guessing about 40%.

40% still left in the church? Wow, you are the most successful church I've ever heard of.

But I don't think the problem with retention of members in the UPC is any different than other orgs. I have 5 siblings that were raised Catholic. Not a one of them continues in that tradition as adults. One of my brothers is committing a travesty by getting married in a Lutheran church next month.

[aak1972]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

40% still left in the church? Wow, you are the most successful church I've ever heard of.

But I don't think the problem with retention of members in the UPC is any different than other orgs. I have 5 siblings that were raised Catholic. Not a one of them continues in that tradition as adults. One of my brothers is committing a travesty by getting married in a Lutheran church next month.

They are not all in that church but in an apostolic church somewhere!