Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Sabellius,

Given the definition of remission is so close to that of Justification, why do none of the leading scholars believe that justification occurs at remission of sins?

From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Leading scholars?? ... or do you mean the one's you subscribe to ... Seagraves holds a position somewhat similar to most Protestant theologians

[SDG]

bump ...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Interestingly, I have come to realize there are at least 3 schools of thought on the relational concepts of justification and remission in the PAJC view.

All believe remission of sins takes place at water baptism ... but there is no consensus on when we experience justification.

Here are the 3 schools of thought -

Some PAJCers believe justification happens before baptism and remission at baptism


Sabellius:


Some believe justification happens after water baptism along with remission

Elder Epley:








Some believe justification is not complete until all the 3 steps are completed with remission occurring at baptism

David Bernard, The New Birth



_______________________________

The questions that beg to be asked are:

1. What is justification? When does it happen?
2. What is remission? Does it happen at water baptism?
3. What are the underlying reasons for this difference of opinion?

Let's refrain from analogies and let's make our points based on the Word.

Justification occurs at faith...if it did not then you could not repent and receive forgiveness. Justification puts you positionally in the right place to receive the blessings of God and what follows with regeneration

[Praxeas]

Note. Abraham was justified in believing God but he would never have received the promise land if he did not act on that belief

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Note. Abraham was justified in believing God but he would never have received the promise land if he did not act on that belief

so regeneration does not come from above but from our works of obedience????

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mizpeh
Dan, your response to my question is "oh boy."

MOW says we are justified by faith and saved. Sabellius says we are justified by faith and not yet saved. Which is it? Is justification the same as salvation?

Dan, what do you say? or even better what do you think the Bible says?

[ManOfWord]

The problem with a "graded/progressive" 3 step plan is that it disqualifies the vast majority of Christians who have EVER lived including those who have been martyred for Him without exception.

It "forces" God to reject, revoke and seemingly disavow a person's relationship with Him for decades or whatever length of time they walked with Him on a technicality.

[SDG]

Chan posted on this subject

Where does the Bible say we are declared innocent? Notice Romans 3:9-19 (KJV):

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

Yes, justification is a legal term but not one that means we are declared innocent.

[Truly Blessed]

We are justified by faith. Anything that man does such as repentance and baptism is the justification of our faith. Romans 8:7-9 makes an important statement that we cannot overlook in discussing the process of salvation. Paul wrote, "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

If the sinful mind is hostile to God and does not submit to God's law, furthermore it can't do so, then something has to happen to the sinful nature of man that causes a person to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, and his own sinfulness, and produces a willingness to submit to the command of God to repent and be baptized.

You tell me! Who is right? Scripture or those who want us to believe that man changes his own mind and acts against his own sinful nature and contrary to the hostility of his sinful nature that opposes God, repents and is baptized?

If the Scripture says that it can't happen then that settles it for me! The answer then is that regeneration has to take place that transforms the nature of that person before they can submit to God.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor.2:14)

Therefore if someone does accept the things of the Spirit, and does understand them, then the logical conclusion is that the Spirit has worked regeneration in that person's life.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1Cor.1:18)

Notice what Paul says here. We can preach the gospel to the sinner, but it is foolishness to them that perish. However, to them who are saved it is the power of God. Through regeneration they to whom the preaching of the cross was foolishness, now having been transformed by the Spirit see it as the power of God.

This my friends, is what Jesus was talking about when He told Nicodemus, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn.3:3)


And this is why that a sinner can come to Jesus Christ and in one moment experience new life! It is this regeneration that causes him to suddenly be filled with a love for God, to want to worship and serve God, and desire to do whatever the Word of God requires of him in order to walk with God. His desires for sin and the world are replaced with a desire for the things of God. No matter what some folks here want sinners to believe, they don't have to wait until they speak in tongues to experience this new life! Praise the Lord!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

We are justified by faith. Anything that man does such as repentance and baptism is the justification of our faith. Romans 8:7-9 makes an important statement that we cannot overlook in discussing the process of salvation. Paul wrote, "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

If the sinful mind is hostile to God and does not submit to God's law, furthermore it can't do so, then something has to happen to the sinful nature of man that causes a person to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, and his own sinfulness, and produces a willingness to submit to the command of God to repent and be baptized.

You tell me! Who is right? Scripture or those who want us to believe that man changes his own mind and acts against his own sinful nature and contrary to the hostility of his sinful nature that opposes God, repents and is baptized?

If the Scripture says that it can't happen then that settles it for me! The answer then is that regeneration has to take place that transforms the nature of that person before they can submit to God.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor.2:14)

Therefore if someone does accept the things of the Spirit, and does understand them, then the logical conclusion is that the Spirit has worked regeneration in that person's life.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1Cor.1:18)

Notice what Paul says here. We can preach the gospel to the sinner, but it is foolishness to them that perish. However, to them who are saved it is the power of God. Through regeneration they to whom the preaching of the cross was foolishness, now having been transformed by the Spirit see it as the power of God.

This my friends, is what Jesus was talking about when He told Nicodemus, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn.3:3)


And this is why that a sinner can come to Jesus Christ and in one moment experience new life! It is this regeneration that causes him to suddenly be filled with a love for God, to want to worship and serve God, and desire to do whatever the Word of God requires of him in order to walk with God. His desires for sin and the world are replaced with a desire for the things of God. No matter what some folks here want sinners to believe, they don't have to wait until they speak in tongues to experience this new life! Praise the Lord!

Dan's your greatest fan ... What is the correlation between justification, remission and salvation TB???