Deltaguitar-Salvation Requires More Than Faith!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I don't know that I am convinced any longer that every believer will speak in tongues.

Even if you no longer believe it, could you respect someone else's belief that tongues is a sign of someone being filled with the Spirit without becoming divisive? Could you fellowship, as in not just eat bread with but worship God as well, with someone who taught that doctrine?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

That's what may trigger most of my angry rants. I don't like to see that "other half" being treated as they are. I never have. You can walk all over me, but someone has to speak up sometimes...

I just started reading The Grace Awakening but Charles Swindoll today. You would like the first chapter.

[Arphaxad]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

That is something I have never agreed with is the word "WORKS" what is works. Living for the lord is easy it is not work to live for Jesus. Someone explain "WORKS" is it the repenting,baptising etc....

my take on "works" are things like doing good deeds for others. Some people think that these kinds of "works" cancel out their sin. ( God won't send me to hell because I'm a good person). I used to think like that before I came to know the Truth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I see it a little differently. Because of God's foreknowledge, He knew from before the world began who would choose to walk in His ways. He knows the end from the beginning. The entirety of history was known of God before it could be called "history". So we do have a free choice to live according to God's original design and intent. He foresaw our choices. After seeing the end, God called, predestined, justified, and glorified.

Did God step into future history and cause some redirection? I think so, but nothing that would ultimately restrict our freedom to choose.

I hear what you are saying but much scripture teaches predestination. Calvin did not invent that and it is one of the few things he did seem to understand.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I see it a little differently. Because of God's foreknowledge, He knew from before the world began who would choose to walk in His ways. He knows the end from the beginning. The entirety of history was known of God before it could be called "history". So we do have a free choice to live according to God's original design and intent. He foresaw our choices. After seeing the end, God called, predestined, justified, and glorified.

Did God step into future history and cause some redirection? I think so, but nothing that would ultimately restrict our freedom to choose.

So now your a Calvinist too.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I hear what you are saying but much scripture teaches predestination. Calvin did not invent that and it is one of the few things he did seem to understand.

I believe in predestination. There are different viewpoints on predestination. Calvin is not the only one who believed in predestination. He didn't corner the market on this doctrine.

But the Bible teaches that God predestines according to his foreknowledge of future events. A Calvinist would say that God chooses according to His sovereignity, arbitrarily without foreknowledge, which in effect nullifies the free will he has given us.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

So now your a Calvinist too.

This is where I learned about Calvinism from a Calvinist.


http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/268theologyquestions

see questions 185-192

Then read again what I wrote and you will know that I am not a Calvinist. I don't believe in the doctrines of original sin, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, and irrestible grace. There are some aspects I agree with in some of their doctrines but as a whole, no way. I think it presents a God contrary to the one I read about in the Bible. It makes God out to be unjust, unfair, and contradictory.

But, yes, I believe in predestination just not in the same way as Calvinists do.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

...
But, yes, I believe in predestination just not in the same way as Calvinists do.

I don't try to understand predestination and free will or Calvinism and Arminianism.

I believe that God knows everything that ever has happened and everything that ever will happen --that nothing ever takes Him by surprise. I believe that God knew me before I was born. He knew when I would come to Him and surrender to Him. He knows what I'll have for lunch today (I don't know that yet), that He knows everything I will ever do throughout the rest of my life, and He knows when I will die. Yet, with all that knowledge and foreknowledge, He does not interfere with my will. I don't know if that fits into any theological system but that's how I see it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I believe in predestination. There are different viewpoints on predestination. Calvin is not the only one who believed in predestination. He didn't corner the market on this doctrine.

But the Bible teaches that God predestines according to his foreknowledge of future events. A Calvinist would say that God chooses according to His sovereignity, arbitrarily without foreknowledge, which in effect nullifies the free will he has given us.

What you believe is not predestination. Paul believed in Gods sovereignty.

11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom. 9:11-16

Of course men say this was just concerning National Israel. However Paul was teaching about salvation all through Romans regardless whether Israel was the subject.

His answer to the "free will" error is he will have mercy on whom HE will and compassion on whom HE will. He does not promise favor to everyone.

My point in regards to this thread is we have people wanting to go the way of Calvinism because they think it offers them freedom from what they consider harsh traditions of the Apostolics.

In reality the HEART of Calvinism is predestination which they seemingly all reject.

They want to talk about how salvation is of God and not men but the real basis of that belief is the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.


16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

So indeed salvation is from God and not man. The elect whom he has given favor will respond to his favor in a positive way.

5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:4

People want the un merited favor without the meaning of un merited.

[1Corinth2v4]

The Fact Remains

According to Romans 6:3-11, WHEN WE ARE WATER BAPTIZED, we are:

baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
buried with Him -Romans 6:4
raised with Him -Romans 6:4
united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
no longer slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
free from sin -Romans 6:7
we will live with Him -Romans 6:8
dead to sin -Romans 6:11
alive to God -Romans 6:11

This would conclude that when we are NOT WATER BAPTIZED, we are:

NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11