The Apostolic Welfare Culture

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Chancellor,
Isn't the church only as strong as the family? Haven't we seen people so involved in church that they neglect their family and don't remain strong enough to stay together.

Or is it just some of these are Martha in the church and not the Mary that cause this?

Go back and read my post and see how I defined the Church. It isn't about a building or ministries or activities, it's about being body parts in Christ's body. As for the family, Jesus said that those who love their families more than they love Him are not worthy of Him and He said that if those who put their hand to the plow look back (toward the house), they are not worthy of Him.

Interestingly, one of the qualifications of a deacon (a SERVANT of the Church - deacon is NOT a leadership position and those churches that have so-called "deacon boards" exercising authority in the Church are not of God because that is not God's created order for the Church), one of the qualifications of a deacon (and a bishop or overseeing elder, aka pastor) is that he rules his household well.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Kutless

Of course any threads started about the "Pastors" are brought to a screaching halt!!

I love you man.

Yes, I agree they should be brought to a screeching halt because pastors should get their way about everything, always, all of the time.

On another level, I think the "welfare mentality" among apostolics (it pervades most of modern culture, by the way) is due in large part to the kind of preaching people first hear.

Evangelism has largely become a sales pitch for Jesus. "Buy my Jesus, this product is AMAZING, it will make you feel better and look better..." We sing them songs about how everything thing is just peachy keen since Jesus came into our heart...

We do NOT preach about counting the cost, about God's claims upon the soul of men, about human responsibility to "fear God and keep His commandments", and about the penalty of willful rejection of God's offer of pardon and amnesty for criminals (sinners).

We generally pull a "bait and switch", to be honest. We do not tell them they will become outcasts from society (largely because we ourselves are too cozy with society to begin with). We do not tell them they may lose their families over the gospel, we do not tell them they must "forsake all, deny themselves, take up their execution stake, and follow Jesus into DEATH TO SELF."

No, we tell them as long as they tithe why they will get money coming in, as long as they stay faithful to church their families will be wonderful and balanced, as long as they keep the pew warm and the collection plate full then all will be well (never mind the statistics which show all is anything BUT well...)

We preach a gospel of selfishness, and should not be surprised when we produce selfish "saints".

But as I said before, I believe God is going to relieve us of the burden of "selfishness" by and by, at least here in America...

...And I believe it will be sooner than later...

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

On another level, I think the "welfare mentality" among apostolics (it pervades most of modern culture, by the way) is due in large part to the kind of preaching people first hear.

Evangelism has largely become a sales pitch for Jesus. "Buy my Jesus, this product is AMAZING, it will make you feel better and look better..." We sing them songs about how everything thing is just peachy keen since Jesus came into our heart...

We do NOT preach about counting the cost, about God's claims upon the soul of men, about human responsibility to "fear God and keep His commandments", and about the penalty of willful rejection of God's offer of pardon and amnesty for criminals (sinners).

We generally pull a "bait and switch", to be honest. We do not tell them they will become outcasts from society (largely because we ourselves are too cozy with society to begin with). We do not tell them they may lose their families over the gospel, we do not tell them they must "forsake all, deny themselves, take up their execution stake, and follow Jesus into DEATH TO SELF."

No, we tell them as long as they tithe why they will get money coming in, as long as they stay faithful to church their families will be wonderful and balanced, as long as they keep the pew warm and the collection plate full then all will be well (never mind the statistics which show all is anything BUT well...)

We preach a gospel of selfishness, and should not be surprised when we produce selfish "saints".

But as I said before, I believe God is going to relieve us of the burden of "selfishness" by and by, at least here in America...

...And I believe it will be sooner than later...

Seriously, God revealed this to me a couple of months ago. He has been beating me about the head and shoulders with the thought you so eloquently posted.

You are on FIRE today Friend. Don't stop.

Originally Posted by tbpew

I have know way of guessing what the word RELIGION means when you use it in a post but.....

I believe we do not have the DELIVERY network in operation that they had in the bible.

Men have reasserted dominion among individuals where the Spirit purposes to have sole dominion.

Its almost unthinkable for most of us to believe that God is the potter doing the work, the author and finisher of his own house, his own church, his Christ.

If men assert dominion among individuals when the Spirit is supposed to have sole dominion, then such men do not have the religion of the Bible.

"That Wicked One... the Son of Perdition... who sitteth in the TEMPLE OF GOD, showing himself that he is God..."

The church is the temple of God. Who then sits in the church of God in God's place? The "man of sin, the son of perdition". The Son of Perdition is a title given to Judas, who BETRAYED the Lord... Paul said that those who partake of the Lord's Supper to the detriment of their brethren are "guilty of the Lord's body and blood" because they do not "discern the body" (which, WE are the body).

So then, whenever anyone in the church attempts to usurp God's authority and dominion over others, or even over themself, they fulfill the role and spirit of the son of perdition, Judas, the betrayer of our Lord.

Just some thoughts.

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.

1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.

2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?

3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.

Back to the front.. Pastor Poster, I do not advocate for church hopping but sometimes there is no choice. I do think the pastor should desire to keep it somewhat interesting.

Dead, boring and uneventful are not things I want to be a part of.

I wonder how many churches are out there that have gone to one service Sun. Seems to be a trend in these here parts.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

On another level, I think the "welfare mentality" among apostolics (it pervades most of modern culture, by the way) is due in large part to the kind of preaching people first hear.

Evangelism has largely become a sales pitch for Jesus. "Buy my Jesus, this product is AMAZING, it will make you feel better and look better..." We sing them songs about how everything thing is just peachy keen since Jesus came into our heart...

We do NOT preach about counting the cost, about God's claims upon the soul of men, about human responsibility to "fear God and keep His commandments", and about the penalty of willful rejection of God's offer of pardon and amnesty for criminals (sinners).

We generally pull a "bait and switch", to be honest. We do not tell them they will become outcasts from society (largely because we ourselves are too cozy with society to begin with). We do not tell them they may lose their families over the gospel, we do not tell them they must "forsake all, deny themselves, take up their execution stake, and follow Jesus into DEATH TO SELF."

No, we tell them as long as they tithe why they will get money coming in, as long as they stay faithful to church their families will be wonderful and balanced, as long as they keep the pew warm and the collection plate full then all will be well (never mind the statistics which show all is anything BUT well...)

We preach a gospel of selfishness, and should not be surprised when we produce selfish "saints".

But as I said before, I believe God is going to relieve us of the burden of "selfishness" by and by, at least here in America...

...And I believe it will be sooner than later...

Wow. What can I say but Amen!

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

1. Those who like smaller churches because:
a. they like the family feeling, close associations, and enmeshment of others into their family systems.
b. they like to get involved in areas of ministry that big churches won't allow them to be involved in because they have those more qualified.
c. they like to know the Pastor and his family on an intimate level.
d. they need someone to tell them what to do and how to do it
e. this is all they know.

2. Those who like larger churches because:
a. They value autonomy, and don't want to know other people's business, and don't want other people knowing their business.
b. They only want to be involved in ministry they are qualified for and some don't want a leadership or ministry position at all.
c. The church is respite from the world, not part of their daily social or work circle.
d. Those with children want only qualified and those with legal clearance to work with their children and all that entails: security so the children are supervised by those not known as pedophiles, or predators; those who do not let just anyone pick up their children but want themselves only to have access to picking up their children; and those qualified to teach to make sure their children are getting the best possible spiritual education and guidance.
e. Programs that are diverse and meet the needs of the community: Music ministries, children's ministries, youth ministries, single's ministries, Divorce Recovery, Adult electives for Bible Classes taught by qualified teachers, counseling, Spanish ministries, Deaf ministries, ect...

I choose to go to a small church rather than the mega church, but not for the reasons you state (although, I do like the fact that the pastor at the small church knows my name )

There is no enmeshment into our family system. We are educated and independent.

I'm not involved in leadership anyway, due to my not believing the same way about standards. (My decision)

I don't need someone to tell me what to do and my pastor preaches that we need to learn to hear from God for ourselves.

I've gone to the mega church and didn't care for it.

But the main reason, we love our church is not the size, it's the wisdom and dedication of our pastor.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

On another level, I think the "welfare mentality" among apostolics (it pervades most of modern culture, by the way) is due in large part to the kind of preaching people first hear.

Evangelism has largely become a sales pitch for Jesus. "Buy my Jesus, this product is AMAZING, it will make you feel better and look better..." We sing them songs about how everything thing is just peachy keen since Jesus came into our heart...

We do NOT preach about counting the cost, about God's claims upon the soul of men, about human responsibility to "fear God and keep His commandments", and about the penalty of willful rejection of God's offer of pardon and amnesty for criminals (sinners).

We generally pull a "bait and switch", to be honest. We do not tell them they will become outcasts from society (largely because we ourselves are too cozy with society to begin with). We do not tell them they may lose their families over the gospel, we do not tell them they must "forsake all, deny themselves, take up their execution stake, and follow Jesus into DEATH TO SELF."

No, we tell them as long as they tithe why they will get money coming in, as long as they stay faithful to church their families will be wonderful and balanced, as long as they keep the pew warm and the collection plate full then all will be well (never mind the statistics which show all is anything BUT well...)

We preach a gospel of selfishness, and should not be surprised when we produce selfish "saints".

But as I said before, I believe God is going to relieve us of the burden of "selfishness" by and by, at least here in America...

...And I believe it will be sooner than later...

Great post.

Another reason we love our church and pastor is because he tells it like it is.

At the large church we attended, the message often was, " all you need to do is shout and everything will be okay."

Our pastor teaches that you are going to have trials and tests; that is how you grow.

[Kutless]

do all preachers get grouchy during vacation season?