Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

[SDG]

To those interested,

Baptism is necessary for obedience .... it is a command of Jesus Christ ... and to be practiced by genuine believers during their intial walk w/ Jesus Christ. All of His commands are to be obeyed. Yet does loving my neighbor cause my New Birth? Does obeying the ordinance of communion remit my sin?

In baptism, we identify ourselves w/ the Work of the Lamb and profess our faith as disciples of Jesus Christ. Peter the preacher at Pentecost states that baptism is the answer of good conscience towards God ...

How can one have a good conscience if your sins have not been washed away prior to baptism? It must be purged.... washed by the blood of the Lamb, first. A repentant heart quickened until life will produce this pledge.

The following quote from, a a good friend and poster here, reflects my belief on what the purpose of baptism is ....

One baptismal regenerationist poster once asked .... As apparently Luke is asking in this thread:

But you just said you believe in "obey all of His commandments". IF you believe this, then you believe in re-enacting what Jesus did (i.e death, burial, resurrection)

My answer:

No sir ... I believe in identifying with His death, burial and resurrection in many ways ....

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1. The Lord's Supper

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Now does this we are to believe in transubstantiation?? ... or that the Lord's Supper must be done for salvation????

No, of course not ... Yet we participate, because we love Him and appreciate the salvation He afforded.

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2. Water Baptism

Romans 6:3-5. In it is a strong comparison between our baptism and Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

In baptism we see imagery of his death, burial and resurrection ... but He did these things once and for all ... I identified with these things and made a public proclamation of faith through obedience when I was baptized ....

The same writer of Romans tells us that we are saved through faith and not by our works so that we may boast ....

He also writes in Romans 3

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again we are baptized because we are saved through faith ... evident by obedience. Faith in Him justifies us ... our faith is justified by our works.

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3. I also identify with his death, burial and resurrection EVERYDAY

Paul says:

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1 Corinthians 15:31

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 2:20

Now .... does this mean that Paul was water baptized everyday of his Christian life???

Paul identifies with Christ death, burial and resurrection ... as we do .. daily in KNOWING HIM more and more each day ...

In Phillipians he states:

3:7 However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ.

3:8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ

3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;

3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Paul is relating his experience of the unsurpassed value of knowing Christ, not based upon his own effort but based upon the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ ....

Paul has gone down the road of trying to impress God, and has seen that it has failed and it is worthless. He is seeking to know God’s righteousness now and in the resurrection.

Again, we obey all of his commandments through our faith in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power of His Spirit living through us.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So your experience supersedes the Word of God??

LOL

No. My experience with God supersedes your interpretation of the Word of God.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by U376977

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter says in Ac. 2:38 " the remission of sins" but in 1 Pt. 3:21 he writes that it does not "put away the filth of the flesh but does provide a "good conscience toward God."

Would a correct interpataion be that baptism allows us to have a "good conscience" to serve God; that it gives us the will (want to), but that it does not "wash away" our sins; it does not "put away the filth of the flesh."


Therefore, remission of sins in baptism=not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but a conscience toward God.

...unbelievable... I've been wrestling with this since last week....

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Those posted TEACH the language at notable universities. Not someone using a strongs.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by 1399

I have not read through all of the other posts but I believe:

baptism DOES NOT wash away our sins as the original Greek translation of this verse does not state that;

baptism DOES fulfill all righteousness-- basically it is something God wants His children to do so do it because that is how we show a good conscience towards God, by doing what He says do.

JMHO....

JESUS WASHES AWAY MY SINS BY FAITH-- otherwise, I'd have to get baptized every day to in order to stay clean and righteous. I am so glad that I NOW realize that in JESUS, i am made complete.

ahem.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Baptism in Jesus name, remits our sins to Him, and His blood covers them.

What about John's disciples who also received "remission of sins" but were not baptized in Jesus name?

[Rico]

What the difference between John's baptism and the apostle's baptism? I already know the answer, but some other folks have been asking questions they already know the answer to, so I thought I would do it too. (No reflection on you or your last post, Pelathias.)

[SDG]

Many have misinterpreted Romans 6 and placed a doctrine developed in the early part of the 20th century in it's place

Romans 6 does not say this no matter the verbal, logical and theological gymnastics used to contort this portion of scripture.

Interestingly enough when one reads Romans 6 baptism is indeed a picture of all three -- HIS DEATH, HIS BURIAL AND HIS RESURRECTION ...

Although most entrenched in re-enactment theology refuse to point out the entire context of Paul's analogy.

Please read it without inferential reasoning.

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Baptism and Roman 6:3-5

Romans 6:3-5 is often used as a proof text for the claim that baptism is essential for salvation. It is a strong comparison between our baptism and Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. On the surface, one could conclude that from these verses, that baptism is part of salvation.

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

Is this section of scripture teaching us that baptism is necessary for salvation to happen? No, it is not. First, we know from the rest of scripture that salvation is by faith, not by faith and something we do Rom. 3:28-30. Second, we can see from other scriptures that baptism follows faith. Take a look at Acts 16:30-33 where the Jailer specifically asks what he must do to be saved and where baptism fits in.

"and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household," (Acts 16:30-33,NASB).

If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul should have said, "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved." But, he did not. Also, consider Acts 10:44-46.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV).

These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10:44-46 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This isn't an exception. It is a reality. This proves that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

What is Romans 6:3-5 saying?

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

The phrase "baptized into" occurs five times in the NT in four verses as found in the KJV and the NASB..

• Rom. 6:3, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
• 1 Cor. 10:2, "and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."
• 1 Cor. 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
• Gal. 3:27, "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

To be baptized "into Christ," "into His death," "into Moses," and "into one body" is to be publicly identified with the thing you are being baptized into. The focus is not the baptism itself, but on the thing the baptism represents. In the case of Rom. 6:3-5, being baptized into Christ is a public identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection which is said to be the gospel that saves in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Baptism, then is a public statement proclaiming that the person is trusting in the sacrifice of Christ.
Baptism by immersion is a perfect symbol for this work of Christ with which the Christian is identifying himself. As Christ died and was raised to a new life, so to the Christian, in Christ, is said to have died (Rom. 6:11; Col. 3:3) and has a new life. This new life of regeneration is by faith, the internal work. Baptism, is the external work of identification with Christ. This is why the reference to baptism in the Bible is dealing more with "our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism."1

• Baptism is being identified as a disciple (Matt. 28:18-9).
• Baptism may be compared to a new birth (John 3:5).
• Baptism is compared to Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-5).
• Baptism is compared to Israel's Exodus and passing through the Red Sea (1 Cor. 10:2).
• Baptism is compared to Noah's escaping the flood waters by entering the ark (1 Pet. 3:21).
  

[SDG]

In each of the references above, baptism is an identification with something. When people were baptized into John the Baptist's baptism of repentance, it wasn't the baptism that granted them repentance or made repentance real. Repentance is something that happens internally and is the work of God (2 Tim. 2:25). To participate in John's baptism was to publicly proclaim that the person being baptized was accepting John's message or repentance. Hence, it was called a baptism of repentance. It wasn't the baptism that brought repentance; rather, baptism was the result of repentance.

The person had to first decide to repent, and then become baptized as a proclamation of his decision. Likewise, the Christian must first decide to repent, to receive Christ (John 1:12), to rely on the sacrifice of Christ, by faith, and then participate in the public proclamation of identifying with Christ's work.

It is an identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that baptism represents. Jesus' shed blood is what cleanses us from our sins (Heb. 9:22), not being washed with water. It is Christ's death that is the payment for sin. Jesus' burial is the proof that He, in fact, died. Jesus' resurrection is the proof of God the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice of Christ and that death is conquered. Again, for a Christian to be baptized is to make a public proclamation that he is trusting in Christ's work, that he is naming himself with Christ and trusting what Christ has done. This is why it says in Rom. 6:11, "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (NASB).

Why? Because "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me," (Gal. 2:20). It is on the cross that Jesus paid for our sins, not in His baptism and not in our baptism. It is our identification with Him, being counted "in Christ" that allows us to say we have been crucified with Christ so that we can say we are dead to sin. We are not dead to sin by our baptism. Rather, we are dead to sin, by faith, in what Jesus did in His sacrifice.

Conclusion

Romans 6:3-5 speaks to us of Christ's work and our public identification with it. In that ancient world of religious plurality in Roman gods, in the strict Laws of the Jewish system, and in the gods of different cultures, to be baptized was to make a bold statement of commitment to Christ as the risen Lord. It was not the water that saved, but faith in Christ and His work.

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Footnotes:
1. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Rom_6_3-5.htm

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

In each of the references above, baptism is an identification with something. When people were baptized into John the Baptist's baptism of repentance, it wasn't the baptism that granted them repentance or made repentance real. Repentance is something that happens internally and is the work of God (2 Tim. 2:25). To participate in John's baptism was to publicly proclaim that the person being baptized was accepting John's message or repentance. Hence, it was called a baptism of repentance. It wasn't the baptism that brought repentance; rather, baptism was the result of repentance.

The person had to first decide to repent, and then become baptized as a proclamation of his decision. Likewise, the Christian must first decide to repent, to receive Christ (John 1:12), to rely on the sacrifice of Christ, by faith, and then participate in the public proclamation of identifying with Christ's work.

It is an identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that baptism represents. Jesus' shed blood is what cleanses us from our sins (Heb. 9:22), not being washed with water. It is Christ's death that is the payment for sin. Jesus' burial is the proof that He, in fact, died. Jesus' resurrection is the proof of God the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice of Christ and that death is conquered. Again, for a Christian to be baptized is to make a public proclamation that he is trusting in Christ's work, that he is naming himself with Christ and trusting what Christ has done. This is why it says in Rom. 6:11, "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (NASB).

Why? Because "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me," (Gal. 2:20). It is on the cross that Jesus paid for our sins, not in His baptism and not in our baptism. It is our identification with Him, being counted "in Christ" that allows us to say we have been crucified with Christ so that we can say we are dead to sin. We are not dead to sin by our baptism. Rather, we are dead to sin, by faith, in what Jesus did in His sacrifice.

Conclusion

Romans 6:3-5 speaks to us of Christ's work and our public identification with it. In that ancient world of religious plurality in Roman gods, in the strict Laws of the Jewish system, and in the gods of different cultures, to be baptized was to make a bold statement of commitment to Christ as the risen Lord. It was not the water that saved, but faith in Christ and His work.

___________________
Footnotes:
1. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Rom_6_3-5.htm

".....We are not dead to sin by our baptism. Rather, we are dead to sin, by faith, in what Jesus did in His sacrifice"

See this is the problem Dan. Yes we are saved by faith but faith is the response to identify WITH HIM and what he did! Baptism is that response of FAITH. It is the turning TO! Thus baptism is part of repentance. We turn to Christ in baptism which is faith. Our reliance on his word, and work in baptism is faith. The water is the symbol of the reality TAKING place throught faith at that time. Baptism is the appointed time in which we are washed of our sins plain and simple!

Sacrifice = DEATH/SHEDDING OF BLOOD Romans 6 is clear we are identified with him at baptism as it is the appointed time.