The Johannine Comma: Inspiration? Or Interpolation?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

That is a fair statement. Manuscripts are weighed and counted, not just counted.

There is a considerable amount of examination given to textual variants. But not to the comma in question. It lacks the evidence needed for inclusion. Is it an old rating ? Yes. Does it have the support it need for inclusion ? I think not.

Upon what basis do you judge it as uninspired? Please lay out the case as to why, whereas other verses with little mss. evidence are inspired.

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Here's an interesting article on the subject: http://brandplucked.webs.com/1john57.htm

The author is, of course, trinitarian, but he includes the following fascinating information which I had not noticed before:

"Both UBS texts list Priscillian (380 AD) bishop of Avila, in support of the Three heavenly witnesses in 1 John 5:7 and many sites list him as “a Spanish heretic”. And What exactly was his heresy? He DIDN’T BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY! Yet he himself writes in Liber Apologeticus: “As John says "and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."


Priscillian (who lived in the 4th century) said in 350 A.D., “As John says, “There are three that give testimony in earth: the water, the flesh and the blood; and these three are one and there are three that give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Spirit; and these three are one in Christ Jesus.” (see http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-fat...ost-in-1-john- 57#TOC-Priscillian-350-AD-).

Vigilius Tapsensis (who lived in the 5th century) stated in 450 A.D., “Also to the Parthians, ‘There are three’, He says, ‘that bear record in earth, the water, the blood and the flesh, and the three are in us. And there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.” (Vigilius Tapsensis, Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7), (KJV Today), “Latin fathers”). He also said in 480 A.D., “...the Evangelist John says in his Epistle: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Spirit, and they are one in the Lord Jesus Christ...” (see http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-fat...#TOC-Vigilius- Tapsensis-450-)." (end of quote)

Notice, that some of the older witnesses to the Comma include the words '...in Christ Jesus'. That is, at least some folks back in the 4th and 5th centuries understood 'the three' to be 'one IN CHRIST JESUS'. The Father, the Word, and the Spirit are 'one in Christ'...!!!!

Thanks!!

[FlamingZword]

Erasmus did not put the Comma in his first or second edition of his Greek Text, he only added it to the 3rd edition and then he removed it from the 4th and the 5th edition.

It was his third edition that was the only one that used the Comma.

[Scott Pitta]

I never include "inspiration" into my understanding of textual criticism. It is not a theological exercise. It is a statistics and textual criticism exercise.

i do not recall anyone stating that the text that they think is most likely the original is "inspired".

There are other reasons for this. Only one will do for now.

No 2 Greek manuscripts of the Greek NT are word for word identical. If there is only one single inspired Greek NT text, then there is only one of them.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

I never include "inspiration" into my understanding of textual criticism. It is not a theological exercise. It is a statistics and textual criticism exercise.

i do not recall anyone stating that the text that they think is most likely the original is "inspired".

There are other reasons for this. Only one will do for now.

No 2 Greek manuscripts of the Greek NT are word for word identical. If there is only one single inspired Greek NT text, then there is only one of them.

If John wrote a letter, then there is only one version of that letter that is "correct". So, what reasons are there for believing the Comma was not what he wrote? If one says "because there are only a few mss.that have it" that would rule out a host of other verses as well, which nevertheless are accepted as genuine. So the low mss. count seems to be non conclusive, there must be other reasons. What are they?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Erasmus did not put the Comma in his first or second edition of his Greek Text, he only added it to the 3rd edition and then he removed it from the 4th and the 5th edition.

It was his third edition that was the only one that used the Comma.

Speaking of the citations of the early church fathers John Gill continues: "And yet, after all, certain it is, that it is cited by many of them; by Fulgentius, in the beginning of the "sixth" century, against the Arians, without any scruple or hesitation; and Jerome, as before observed, has it in his translation made in the latter end of the "fourth" century; AND IT IS CITED BY ATHANASIUS ABOUT THE YEAR 350; AND BEFORE HIM BY CYPRIAN, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE THIRD CENTURY, ABOUT THE YEAR 250; AND IT IS REFERRED TO BY TERTULLIAN ABOUT THE YEAR 200; AND WHICH WAS WITHIN A HUNDRED YEARS, OR LITTLE MORE, OF THE WRITING OF THE EPISTLE, WHICH MAY BE ENOUGH TO SATISFY ANYONE OF THE GENUINENESS OF THIS PASSAGE; and besides, there never was any dispute about it till Erasmus left it out in the first edition of his translation of the New Testament; and yet he himself, upon the credit of the old British copy before mentioned, put it into another edition of his translation." - from the page I linked to earlier.

[Esaias]

Another very common objection to 1 John 5:7 is the allegation that Erasmus said he would include the verse if he found a Greek manuscript that contained it. Then almost made to order, hot off the presses, one appeared. Bruce Metzger who was partly responsible for propagating this urban myth at least had the integrity to retract this false accusation in the 3rd edition of his book. Here is the exact quote from Mr. Metzger himself.


"What is said on p. 101 above about Erasmus' promise to include the Comma Johanneum if one Greek manuscript were found that contained it, and his subsequent suspicion that MS 61 was written expressly to force him to do so, needs to be corrected in the light of the research of H. J. DeJonge, a specialist in Erasmian studies who finds no explicit evidence that supports this frequently made assertion." Bruce M. Metzger, The Text of The New Testament, 3rd Edition, p 291 fn 2.

(ibid.)

[Scott Pitta]

Esaias, fair question.

There are many factors examined to determine the probability of the original text. I work tomorrow and I simply do not have the time to detail them all. Aland text would answer all your questions.

[Norman]

"No 2 Greek manuscripts of the Greek NT are word for word identical."

I would like to have a source for this. Are translations of the oldest Greek manuscripts available anywhere?

[Scott Pitta]

I would suggest Metzger or Aland or any other introductory book on the subject of textual criticism.

It unusual for textual criticism tools and reference book to translate into English quotes from Greek. I think most of the early Greek manuscripts can be found on Google image. Some are at the University of Michigan. Those are early images of papri46.

The reason for all of this is that in college, a student learns the language and then learns about textual criticism, so there is no need to translate quotes or manuscripts.

This creates a problem for those interested in textual criticism but do not speak the language.