If You Sin Are You Lost Until You Repent?

[Esaias]

How much sin can a believer have before he does lose his salvation? Surely y'all aren't saying a Christian can never lose it? Or are you?

[Esaias]

Somebody explain Ezekiel 33:13, please.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How much sin can a believer have before he does lose his salvation? Surely y'all aren't saying a Christian can never lose it? Or are you?

Walking in continual unrepented sin will grieve the Holy Spirit, which if not taken care of will in turn Quench the Holy Spirit. How much it will take I don't know, but without repentance it's guaranteed. It's all dependent upon God's grace and mercy how long that is played out. But if you died in that process you'd wouldn't pass go and wouldn't collect 200 dollars!

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Somebody explain Ezekiel 33:13, please.

yikes... pretty self explanatory. verse 12 also so much for eternal security.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Somebody explain Ezekiel 33:13, please.

Id like to pull out Ezekial 33:13-20 "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. [14] Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; [15] If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. [16] None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. [17] Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. [18] When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. [19] But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. [20] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Or Ezekiel 18:21-24 "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. [23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God : and not that he should return from his ways, and live? [24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

This is the effect of unrepented sin. What do you say about this? Hopefully were not going to get the old cliche answer, "but that was the Old Testament". As if God changes or if the covenant we are under was not in view when He said all this. To tell the truth if this stood for them that had not the Spirit been poured out on, how much more for us?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Walking in continual unrepented sin will grieve the Holy Spirit, which if not taken care of will in turn Quench the Holy Spirit. How much it will take I don't know, but without repentance it's guaranteed. It's all dependent upon God's grace and mercy how long that is played out. But if you died in that process you'd wouldn't pass go and wouldn't collect 200 dollars!

I believe that sin will lead to apostasy if unrepented of. If we willfully continue in sin we are resisting the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). If we continue resisting the Spirit we become hardened to the Spirit's conviction and as a result we quench the Holy Spirit (I Thessalonians 5:19). Once we've quenched the Spirit and we continue in sin, we then grieve the Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). We're not lost yet. However, this is when corrective judgments typically come our way to get our attention from the outside that we might turn and repent. If we continue to resist the Spirit we insult the Spirit (Hebrews 10:29). If we continue to insult the Spirit a line can be crossed... a line that moves into blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32) and counting the very blood that that saved us an unholy thing (Hebrews 10:29). Now the backslidden saint of God has crossed the line into apostasy and will never return.

I do not believe that it is easy to be lost. Jesus didn't die for a greasy grace that could slip right through your fingers. However, continued and intentional rebellion will cause one to eventually lose their soul.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Id like to pull out Ezekial 33:13-20 "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. [14] Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; [15] If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. [16] None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. [17] Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. [18] When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. [19] But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. [20] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Or Ezekiel 18:21-24 "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. [23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God : and not that he should return from his ways, and live? [24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

What about this?

I have a couple questions... In Ezekiel 18:21 it reads:

Ezekiel 18:21
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

What are "all my statutes"? Can we list them so that we might be sure to know them and keep them? Are those very same statutes being talked about here in reference to OT Israel the very same statutes we're expected to obey in the NT Church?

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've seen people who claim sinless perfection sin away in gossip, slander, railings, and the like. They see "sin" as a violation of their codified religious expectations. We've all seen them, they meet all the demands of every standard of the church, but they are the meanest, un-Christlike people one could ever meet. By no means is this everyone who believes in standards, but it is quite common, and we've all seen it.

Since they believe they are sinlessly perfect, they don't see the sin the pours from their lips. They fail to see that they will be called to an account on "every idle word"... yes... "every idle word". Some men will see many of their posts on forums such as these coming back to haunt them in the judgment. Things that didn't have to be said, things that shouldn't have been said. And, I must confess, I've done it too. But they won't confess and admit that they sinned in doing so, therefore, they can't get it under the blood. And they also know that should they confess, they'll have to change the tone of their communication... which they greatly love, seeing that they have mistakened hardness for holiness.

When one sins, they act out in a carnal manner that is not in accordance with the inner nature of the Holy Spirit abiding in them. The sensitive soul will feel shame, guilt, remorse, sorrow, a desire not to do that again. These feelings come from that abiding inner nature. It troubles them when they are not acting in alignment with Christ who abides in them. And so, the necessity is to repent about it, and confess it. Apologize if necessary, or make restitution if applicable. Those who believe in sinless perfection may indeed attain it. But the danger is thinking one has attained it... when there is a lot of repenting and confession left to do.

Perfection is an interesting thing. Jesus said,

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That means, "Be as perfect as God." But notice... the statement is lifted from it's context. It actually reads...

Matthew 5:45-48 King James Version (KJV)
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Ah, now we're able to see what Jesus meant. Jesus clearly means that we are made perfect, as the Father in Heaven is perfect, by loving others unconditionally. This elevates our mindfulness above and beyond that of the religionist Pharisees who only loved their own, and those who loved them. When we are loving like this, we are most like God, for the Scripture states:

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

This is fundamental if one wishes to entertain the notion of sinless spiritual perfection. Most who believe in "sinless perfection" have some framework of cherrypicked "law" from the OT that they believe all must obey. And you'll notice that if you look closely, each of them differ. Just ask about the Sabbath, or meats, or feast days, or laws requiring not trimming the edges and corners of their facial hair, and suddenly, they'll all be squabbling over it. lol

There is a better way. Paul writes in Romans:

Romans 13:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And in Galatians,

Galatians 5:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This is in perfect harmony with Christ's summary of the entire spirit and intent of the law...

Matthew 22:36-40 King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

You see, we demonstrate our love for God in our love for others. This is called the Law of Love, the Law of Christ, the Law of Grace, and often the Law of Liberty. It's quite simple... love. If you love God, you'll love others. And if you love others, you'll have fulfilled "all the law" in one fell swoop.

You then discover that the root of sin is in a failure to love God and others. One need not repent of stealing from their neighbor. The theft isn't the root of the problem. The problem is that they failed to love their neighbor enough not to steal from them. And so, repentance demands that one must turn from self to loving their neighbor in a deeper, Christlike, manner.

The religionists will always have their "system". Each one has a slightly unique "system" they demand that we must live by. It's almost like each has a franchise! lol When if they burned every Bible tomorrow, if you just dedicated yourself to loving others... you'll experience a holiness beyond anything religion can promise. Now, the religionists don't like this. It makes a mockery of their religious systems and cherry picked lists of commandments from the OT. It elevates the Christian life out of the control they seek to gain. It takes focus off of their lists of what not to do... and turns our focus on the single most important thing we must do... love.

And so, all the law is fulfilled in simply loving God, and showing God that you love Him in your love for others. And in doing this, we are most like the God who is love... and in this, we are made perfect as He is perfect.

What sin is it that you struggle with? Can you examine it and discover how it fails to love God and others? Pray, and open your heart to love God and others in a manner that empowers you to let go of the sin. For example, pornography. Do you realize those people are someone's sons and daughters? Do you realize that they are loved and are dehumanizing themselves? How would you feel if your daughter, mother, sister, aunt, or loved one was selling themselves like that? Consider the drug addiction and bondage they are often in. Now look at the sin your flesh desires... does it exploit this terrible and painful circumstance that these precious souls that Jesus died for are trapped in, just to provide you physical pleasure? If you see them as God sees them, you'll be broken hearted, weeping, wanting to pray and grieve over every picture of someone's son or daughter caught in this Hellish trap. It will become too much to bear, too much to even behold. And now, seeing beyond Satan's lies and illusions, you'll detest it. They are people. People who are being used and abused for the carnal pleasure of those who fail to see the reality of the horror of the trap these people are in.

Love is the key to it all.

Well said, Aquila. Very good.
"Love is the key to all." Yes indeed. And who is perfected in love now? Not me. But I'm trying.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have a couple questions... In Ezekiel 18:21 it reads:

Ezekiel 18:21
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

What are "all my statutes"? Can we list them so that we might be sure to know them and keep them? Are those very same statutes being talked about here in reference to OT Israel the very same statutes we're expected to obey in the NT Church?

They went from thou shalt not in the OT to If you love me you shall keep my commandments in the NT. Anything that doesn't please God if we love Him we shouldnt do it. We can't make a list but if you become a student of the Word they will be easy to decipher.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

No one in this thread ever said they didn't sin. That's another part of the same "agenda" being played out. You may not even know you are doing it, so I'm not saying you are premeditating it. But if you follow this same thread of thought, throughout thread after thread on this forum you will find a big picture.

I don't have an agenda, just a basic question about our life before God.

But we all do sin and fall short of the glory of God, if not it wouldn't be in the Bible. But, it all goes with a attitude and a desire toward that. If I realize that and when I fall short I confess, and repent that's one thing. But it wouldn't be true repentance if I just kept on doing it, and justifying it with the same scripture. Somewhere my desire, has to line up with God's Will.

I agree with this. We fall short, and if we are a genuine believer, we will be troubled by it. My question has to do with that period of time between someone falling short of the glory of God and recognizing it and turning back to God in confession and repentance. Are the lost during that time?

But no one ever was sinless but Jesus, absolutely. Yet, that doesn't give anyone the right to just sin.

So very true. A genuine believer will be troubled, even grieved, by their sin and will seek to make things right with God.