Judged By A Bearded Man

[Aquila]

For me, it all goes back to Scripture. The Bible has absolutely no hint of facial hair being a factor in relation to salvation, leadership, or sanctification.

The "shaving standard" is just another tradition of men being taught as doctrine.

[Aquila]

I once read that we are living in the Resurrection, meaning that when the saints die, they go to Heaven and not Abraham's Bosom. This would mean that the Resurrection isn't past. In fact, it proposes that the Resurrection may have begun when Christ walked the earth, and is continuing even until this very day.

I'm not to sure about that idea because I've always believed in a literal single Resurrection connected to the Return of Jesus.

Is this notion of the Resurrection kind of what you believe, EB?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I once read that we are living in the Resurrection, meaning that when the saints die, they go to Heaven and not Abraham's Bosom. This would mean that the Resurrection isn't past. In fact, it proposes that the Resurrection may have begun when Christ walked the earth, and is continuing even until this very day.

I'm not to sure about that idea because I've always believed in a literal single Resurrection connected to the Return of Jesus.

Is this notion of the Resurrection kind of what you believe, EB?

From Adam to Moses death reigned, and Jesus was the one who completed the covenant. Those who took place within that covenant had to awake from sleep. They went on to their reward, either good or bad. We who are part of a New and everlasting covenant have no end to this covenant and therefore when we die we appear before the bema seat, the judgement seat of Christ. Whether we did good or bad. We then join those who have gone before us.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Abraham's bosom isn't an actual place, the same with the rich man in torements.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Abraham's bosom isn't an actual place, the same with the rich man in torements.

I'm not sure if the term "place" is accurate, given that it is a spiritual state of existence, obviously on a spiritual plane. And while I agree with you that Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) is the same "place", there was a separation, a "great gulf fixed" between the two states of being as it relates to Paradise and the place of torments. So, while Paradise might be the same "place" as the place of torments under the Old Covenant, it is clearly a division of that place, allowing for some souls to be in torments, and others to be in Paradise.

I believe that under the New Covenant, the soul either goes directly to Heaven to the Bema seat of Christ, or it is confined in Hell, the place of torments. In both cases, the soul awaits the resurrection that takes place when Christ returns. The resurrected souls of all men will then stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment for final sentencing, and as a result they will receive their eternal reward.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm not sure if the term "place" is accurate, given that it is a spiritual state of existence, obviously on a spiritual plane. And while I agree with you that Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) is the same "place", there was a separation, a "great gulf fixed" between the two states of being as it relates to Paradise and the place of torments. So, while Paradise might be the same "place" as the place of torments under the Old Covenant, it is clearly a division of that place, allowing for some souls to be in torments, and others to be in Paradise.

Find me where Abraham's bosom is paradise in the OT. The Greek word παράδεισος referred to the Garden of Eden. Jesus wasn't telling the thief he would be in heaven or the grave with Jesus. Because the question was concerning the kingdom. Therefore Jesus replies I tell you today, that you will be in παράδεισος with me. The whole hullabaloo was about getting kicked out of παράδεισος because they broke the law "thou shalt not" from the fig tree. So they covered themselves up with the leaves of the Law "fig leaves" pretty poorly I might add, and hid themselves when they heard His voice. Same things with the Israelis at Mount Sinai, they heard the rumble and roar and wanted to hide. Peter hears it's Jesus on the shore so he puts on his fisher's coat and jumps in the water. In John 21:7 we are told that Peter takes the clothed dive because when he heard it was Jesus he clothed himself because he was naked. Same with Adam and Eve, they try to cover up because of their nakedness. Yet, Jesus answers the thief in accordance to what the thief originally asked Jesus. Will you accept me into your kingdom? The Kingdom of the Messiah. Jesus tells the thief that Kingdom is Eden restored. Noty the grave because the grave is where everyone (including kings like David) would sleep. Not heaven because Jesus would be the only one who would proceed many. But the restoration of Eden the Garden of God, the New and living way, the covenant which would never be diminished or destroyed.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that under the New Covenant, the soul either goes directly to Heaven to the Bema seat of Christ, or it is confined in Hell, the place of torments. In both cases, the soul awaits the resurrection that takes place when Christ returns. The resurrected souls of all men will then stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment for final sentencing, and as a result they will receive their eternal reward.

Hell is the grave where all would go, and isn't a place of torements but a place of sleep. The lake of fire is something totally different, and hell aka the grave had to be thrown into it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Find me where Abraham's bosom is paradise in the OT. The Greek word παράδεισος referred to the Garden of Eden. Jesus wasn't telling the thief he would be in heaven or the grave with Jesus. Because the question was concerning the kingdom. Therefore Jesus replies I tell you today, that you will be in παράδεισος with me. The whole hullabaloo was about getting kicked out of παράδεισος because they broke the law "thou shalt not" from the fig tree. So they covered themselves up with the leaves of the Law "fig leaves" pretty poorly I might add, and hid themselves when they heard His voice. Same things with the Israelis at Mount Sinai, they heard the rumble and roar and wanted to hide. Peter hears it's Jesus on the shore so he puts on his fisher's coat and jumps in the water. In John 21:7 we are told that Peter takes the clothed dive because when he heard it was Jesus he clothed himself because he was naked. Same with Adam and Eve, they try to cover up because of their nakedness. Yet, Jesus answers the thief in accordance to what the thief originally asked Jesus. Will you accept me into your kingdom? The Kingdom of the Messiah. Jesus tells the thief that Kingdom is Eden restored. Noty the grave because the grave is where everyone (including kings like David) would sleep. Not heaven because Jesus would be the only one who would proceed many. But the restoration of Eden the Garden of God, the New and living way, the covenant which would never be diminished or destroyed.



Hell is the grave where all would go, and isn't a place of torements but a place of sleep. The lake of fire is something totally different, and hell aka the grave had to be thrown into it.

I believe we're saying very similar things in different words. The order of events might differ though, because I'm more of a Partial Preterist, and you are a Full Preterist.

Under the Old Covenant, the righteous dead went to Paradise. The wicked went to, Sheol, the grave. Jesus describes how these realities were in the same realm, separated by a great gulf. The righteous could see the wicked, and the wicked the righteous, but they couldn't cross over to one another.

After the cross, the righteous dead no longer go to Paradise, but rather they go directly to Heaven. Sheol enlarged itself, and so the entire realm is now a place to confine the wicked. It, and those within, will be cast into the lake of fire after the Great Judgment, that follows Christ's return.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe we're saying very similar things in different words. The order of events might differ though, because I'm more of a Partial Preterist, and you are a Full Preterist.

Under the Old Covenant, the righteous dead went to Paradise. The wicked went to, Sheol, the grave. Jesus describes how these realities were in the same realm, separated by a great gulf. The righteous could see the wicked, and the wicked the righteous, but they couldn't cross over to one another.

After the cross, the righteous dead no longer go to Paradise, but rather they go directly to Heaven. Sheol enlarged itself, and so the entire realm is now a place to confine the wicked. It, and those within, will be cast into the lake of fire after the Great Judgment, that follows Christ's return.

Dead in the OT went no where else but sleep in the grave with the collective.
As sleeping with their fathers. All sleeping took place in the grave. Separation would only happen upon awakening to be judged.

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom

Dead in the OT went no where else but sleep in the grave with the collective.
As sleeping with their fathers. All sleeping took place in the grave. Separation would only happen upon awakening to be judged.

Amen!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Dead in the OT went no where else but sleep in the grave with the collective.
As sleeping with their fathers. All sleeping took place in the grave. Separation would only happen upon awakening to be judged.

If you get the chance, would you mind elaborating on that idea? Feel free to send it PM so we don't take the thread too far off track. lol