Random Questions Thread

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Luke 13
22 He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’
26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.
29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.
30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”



“when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.”
&
And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.

Could you please explain this, as it relates to the passages above?

Every Judean expected to "recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the prophets, in the kingdom of God", that is, they expected to live forever after Judgment Day in the "World To Come". But Jesus is pointing out that many of them will in fact NOT enjoy eternal life, but would be cast out of it. They have their expectations, and apparently would go so far as to profess some kind of familiarity with Christ. But, He will profess to not know them (meaning they had no meaningful relationship with him), and cast them out because they are "workers of iniquity".

Luke 13:27 KJV
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

The phrase "workers of iniquity" here is literally "workers of unrighteousness". They would be the people who practiced unrighteousness, much as Jesus expounded on during His Sermon on the Mount when He compared the "righteousness" of the Pharisees to true righteousness.

Three lessons are in view here:

1. Ancestry alone will not cut it. Many of the Judeans believed that because they were descended from Abraham, they qualified as his "children" and would get the inheritance. But as even John the Baptist pointed out, that was not enough:

Matthew 3:7-9 KJV
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: [9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

2. There would be many who would in fact inherit the kingdom of God, others who were thought of as unworthy and impossible to enter the kingdom. Not only the dispersed tribes of Israel (the "lost sheep of the House of Israel") which had been deported out of Palestine and spread abroad to the four quarters of the earth, but many other nations would partake of the blessings of Abraham. It is the intent of God that every nation, tribe, and family know Him and be blessed along with Abraham, enjoying the benefits of a right relationship with their Creator:

Isaiah 56:1-8 KJV
Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. [2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

3. Familiarity with Christ is not enough to inherit the kingdom of God. They claimed to be familiar with Him, suggesting familiarity with at least the basics of His teachings and His ways. But they were still workers of unrighteousness. True faith produces true obedience, true righteousness, and a lack of true obedience and true righteousness is indicative of a lack of true faith. Thus they are cast out.

Matthew 5:17-20 KJV
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[shag]

The city…

Gal. 4:22-26

Hebrews 11:16
Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12:22
Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 13:14
For here we do not have a permanent city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

Revelation 21:2
I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Question:
What exactly is the “non permanent city” in Heb 13:14, and what exactly is the “continuing city”?
(As well as the, “he has prepared for them a city”, in Heb. 11:16)

Are all of these passages simply speaking of the church, old covenant vs new?

[Amanah]

This is a partial answer

Redemptive history in the book of Hebrews:

https://www.esv.org/resources/esv-gl...58-redemptive/

**

Hebrews 13:14's "non-permanent city" and "continuing city" should be understood in the context of the biblical narrative:

*The "non-permanent city" refers to the earthly Jerusalem, symbolizing the old covenant and its limitations (Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 8:6-13).

*The "continuing city" represents the heavenly Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), which is the ultimate reality, eternal and perfect.

Hebrews 11:16's "city... prepared for them" points to this heavenly Jerusalem, where God dwells with His people.

The kingdom of God in stages:

*The already-not-yet tension: The heavenly city is already present in Christ, but its full realization awaits the eschaton.

*The church's role: As a community of pilgrims, journeying toward the heavenly city, reflecting its values and hope.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

This is a partial answer

Redemptive history in the book of Hebrews:

https://www.esv.org/resources/esv-gl...58-redemptive/

**

Hebrews 13:14's "non-permanent city" and "continuing city" should be understood in the context of the biblical narrative:

*The "non-permanent city" refers to the earthly Jerusalem, symbolizing the old covenant and its limitations (Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 8:6-13).

*The "continuing city" represents the heavenly Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), which is the ultimate reality, eternal and perfect.

Hebrews 11:16's "city... prepared for them" points to this heavenly Jerusalem, where God dwells with His people.

The kingdom of God in stages:

*The already-not-yet tension: The heavenly city is already present in Christ, but its full realization awaits the eschaton.

*The church's role: As a community of pilgrims, journeying toward the heavenly city, reflecting its values and hope.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

The city…

Gal. 4:22-26

Hebrews 11:16
Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12:22
Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 13:14
For here we do not have a permanent city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

Revelation 21:2
I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Question:
What exactly is the “non permanent city” in Heb 13:14, and what exactly is the “continuing city”?
(As well as the, “he has prepared for them a city”, in Heb. 11:16)

Are all of these passages simply speaking of the church, old covenant vs new?

Abraham was called by God and promised several things: he would be the ancestor of a multitude of nations; he (through his descendants) would be a blessing to every family, nation, and tribe in the earth; he (through his descendants) would have a land of their own; and his descendants would be the people of God in covenantal relationship.

Despite these promises, he and his son Isaac and grandson Jacob nevertheless lived as Bedouins, sojourners or pilgrims, strangers or migrants living in the very land they were promised to inherit. They dwelt in tents or tabernacles, temporary dwelling places, basically like Gypsies. So he and they looked forward to something more permanent, something established by the promise of God and effectuated by Divine Providence and Power. Thus, they looked for something built and founded, designed and constructed, by God and not by man.

As dwellers in tents is used to indicate their current status (during their lifetime), the "city" is used to indicate the contrasting thing promised to them. Thus, the city to come, the permanent or "continuing" city, is a symbol of that Promised condition which would be permanent (as compared to their temporary existence as pilgrims and sojourners). They looked forward with faith in the promises of God, although with the visible eye they could only be viewed as travellers. The thing promised was as yet "unseen", that is to say, it was not yet manifested or come to fruition.

It is called "the heavenly city" because it is established and founded by God. It is identified with the same thing the church is looking forward to - the permanent society established by God. This is represented in the Revelation as the heavenly or new Jerusalem.

This is not saying that Abraham was looking forward to dying and going to heaven. Nor that he was looking forward to some future that had nothing to do with the actual promises made to him and Isaac and Jacob. Too many people try to reverse engineer or read modern Christendom's eschatology back into the Patriarchal faith. Rather than following the Bible and maintaining that the original Patriarchal faith IS the faith once delivered to the saints, taught by Jesus and the apostles, as well as the prophets all through the Old Testament scriptures.

God originally established a family in a Garden. That was the beginning of what should have been a heavenly society, the kingdom of God in the earth. But due to Adam's sin, and the following corruption of his descendants, the society was destroyed, only Noah and his three sons and their wives surviving. Noah's descendant Abraham was then called by God, to be the "father" of the reconstituted kingdom of God in the earth. Thus he is the "father" of the faith, or to put it another way, the saints walk in the same faith as Abraham.

Abraham was promised to produce a multitude of nations, covenanted with God, to bear the light and truth of God to all families on the earth. This is the message and "story" of the Bible. The "church" is simply those descendants of Abraham who are in covenant with God, as His people, the vehicle through which God's promises are being carried out. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the prophets, and the saints of the new covenant, all looked (and look) forward to the same thing - the fulfillment of the Divine Promises made to Abraham.

The problem is, many professing Christians these days have not examined what exactly they are looking forward to, to see if it is indeed the same thing Abraham was promised and which the Bible speaks of throughout its pages, both old and new testaments.

As far as the church's relationship to the "continuing city", the church - Israel in the new covenant - is that continuing city in its current pilgrim form. Just as Abraham and his family were the society or kingdom of God in the earth in its then-current pilgrim form. According to Hebrews 13:14 the church in this world is still in its pilgrim state, looking forward to the manifestation of the promised goal. The Revelation depicts the city coming down from God out of heaven to the earth, which represents the final and permanent installation or establishment of the promised Abrahamic society or kingdom of God in the earth. This manifestation or establishment includes the submission of all nations to the rule of God through His people, and persists into the "eternal state". That is to say, once it is fully realised, it will be THE permanent condition of mankind, there being no other succeeding "societies" or social orders that would come afterward.

When he says "here we have no continuing city", he is referring to Jerusalem. The city of Jerusalem was believed by the Jews to be the city of God. And insofar as it was the capitol of the society God had established (Israel) and the seat of the worship of the true God, in a sense, it was the city of God. But having rejected Messiah, it being rejected by Him and consigned to doom, t was "non permanent". It would not "continue", that is, it would be destroyed (AD 70). The soon destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem was of no real consequence to Christians, since their hopes weren't tied up in and fulfilled by the earthly city and its polity. Rather, they looked forward to the permanent installation of the kingdom of God under Christ. Therefore, just as Messiah had left the city (called "the camp", in light of Jerusalem's non-permanency) to die and accomplish the will of God and the Atonement, they too should be willing to leave the city and not be confounded by its destruction.

To the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem might as well have been the "end of the world", because for them it practically was. But for the Christians, the destruction of Jerusalem was just one more step along the journey to a more permanent goal.

[shag]

What is a biblical Jew?


Or what defines a biblical Jew from the Bible?

Did that definition change when we came to the new covenant, or has the definition always been the same?

In the old covenant, what was the definition of a biblical Jew, (and vs now)?


Was the Rom. 2:28 “ Definition” The same in the old covenant as in the new?

Were people in the old covenant only a Jew if they had circumcised hearts? Or were they a Jew even if they did not have circumcised hearts?

How does that relate to Jer. 4:4?


Did biblical Jews cease to exist?
If so, why, as it relates to Rom. 2:28…?

Trying to sort this mess out…
Please and thank you

[Amanah]

Old Covenant

In the Old Testament, a biblical Jew was defined by:

1. Physical descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Genesis 12:3; 15:5).
2. Physical Circumcision (Genesis 17:10-14).
3. Adherence to the Mosaic covenant and law (Exodus 19-24).
4. Membership in the Israelite community.

However, Scripture also emphasizes the importance of:

1. Circumcised heart (Deuteronomy 10:16; 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4).
2. Faith and obedience (Genesis 15:6; Exodus 19:5).

Jeremiah 4:4 warns that external circumcision is insufficient without internal heart change.

New Covenant

In the New Testament, Paul redefines what it means to be a Jew:

Romans 2:28-29 ESV
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Here, Paul emphasizes:

1. Spiritual circumcision (Colossians 2:11-12).
2. Faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:26-29).
3. New covenant membership (Acts 2, Hebrews 8:6-13).

Continuity and Change

Physical descent and external circumcision were important in the Old Covenant, the New Covenant emphasizes spiritual realities:

1. Faith and obedience (same emphasis as Old Testament).
2. Internal heart change (same emphasis as Jeremiah 4:4).
3. Spiritual circumcision (Acts 2, Colossians 2:11-12).

The definition of a biblical Jew has shifted from external markers to internal, spiritual realities.

Did Biblical Jews Cease to Exist?

In one sense, yes. The Old Covenant, ethnic-based understanding of Jewish identity has given way to a New Covenant, spiritually-based understanding.

In another sense, no. Paul still identifies himself as a Jew (Acts 21:39; Romans 11:1)

However, the distinction between Jew and Gentile has been transcended in Christ (Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:14).

Relationship to Romans 2:28

Romans 2:28 redefines what it means to be a Jew, emphasizing spiritual circumcision and inward faith. This definition:

1. Builds upon Old Testament emphasis on circumcised heart.
2. Transcends external markers.
3. Applies to all Acts 2 believers, regardless of ethnicity.

[shag]

TY Amanah


So if Paul redefined what it means to be a Jew, are you saying that everyone that is circumcised of the heart as in Romans 228, (including gentiles) is the new def. of a Jew? Like the body of Christ are now (true) Jews?

I’m having a bit of trouble with the idea that the biblical definition of a Jew has been redefined(changed).

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

TY Amanah


So if Paul redefined what it means to be a Jew, are you saying that everyone that is circumcised of the heart as in Romans 228, (including gentiles) is the new def. of a Jew? Like the body of Christ are now (true) Jews?

I’m having a bit of trouble with the idea that the biblical definition of a Jew has been redefined.

Israel is another way of saying "the church" (Galatians 6:16; Romans 9:6-8). The church of the old covenant (Israel) has been expanded to include all nations (Ephesians 2:11-22).

At Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was poured out (Acts 2), Israel (the church) was redefined to include believers from all nations (Acts 2:5-47).

The lineage of Father Abraham is no longer restricted to physical Jews (as in the old covenant, Romans 4:13-18) but now includes spiritual Jews (Israel, the church, Galatians 3:26-29; Romans 2:28-29).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

What is a biblical Jew?


Or what defines a biblical Jew from the Bible?

Did that definition change when we came to the new covenant, or has the definition always been the same?

In the old covenant, what was the definition of a biblical Jew, (and vs now)?


Was the Rom. 2:28 “ Definition” The same in the old covenant as in the new?

Were people in the old covenant only a Jew if they had circumcised hearts? Or were they a Jew even if they did not have circumcised hearts?

How does that relate to Jer. 4:4?


Did biblical Jews cease to exist?
If so, why, as it relates to Rom. 2:28…?

Trying to sort this mess out…
Please and thank you :)

Originally, a Judahite was a descendant of Judah and thus a member of the tribe of Judah. Then it was applied to any Israelite of the southern Kingdom of Judah in contrast to the northern Kingdom of Israel. Then in Roman times it was applied to either a citizen of Judea or a follower of the Judean religion.

Roman 2:28 is a logical argument based on the OT examples and concepts of being worthy of the title people of God. The 10 tribed kingdom of Israel was declared "Not My People" in Hosea, thus their circumcision was reckoned as uncircumcision by God. Paul also argues that even though Abraham had several sons only one was reckoned as the promised son of the covenant. Likewise with Isaac's two sons. Thus mere ancestry (whether physical or cultural) is not enough to establish one's position as a child of God. One has to actually be righteous and faithful.


Regarding Jeremiah 4:4, consider this:

Deuteronomy 10:14-16 KJV
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. [15] Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. [16] Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

And this:

Deuteronomy 30:4-6 KJV
If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Heart circumcision is a metaphor for a genuine conversion to God, to be faithful and obedient to Him, to love Him as the supreme object of affection. Without that no physical circumcision, cultural heritage, or blood ancestry will prevail to establish a person as righteous before God.

The people generally known today as Jews are in fact not Jews, because they are not the tribe of Judah nor do they actually follow the Old Covenant, and they certainly aren't "true Jews" because they have not been converted to Christ.