The Johannine Comma: Inspiration? Or Interpolation?

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This thread is several years old! I am not turning in a paper for a grade! I also don't feel like digging back and doing all the work AGAIN just to put up a bibliography.

You make great points, but without a bibliography they have no credibility. The statements are then unproven and can't be used to teach others. Citing sources is good scholarship and should be done regardless of whether it's for a grade. Especially when you're proving something historically.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by randyabrown

You make great points, but without a bibliography they have no credibility. The statements are then unproven and can't be used to teach others. Citing sources is good scholarship and should be done regardless of whether it's for a grade. Especially when you're proving something historically.

I certainly agree with you on that, and I understand. However, in my defense, this is AFF, after all... lol

I will see what I can do.

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I certainly agree with you on that, and I understand. However, in my defense, this is AFF, after all... lol

I will see what I can do.

I appreciate it Brother.

[Esaias]

Almost forgot this thread! Not sure if this information was already included in previous posts (I am not re-reading the entire thread), but thought I'd just throw this out there for anyone still studying the issue:

The disputed text reads:

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It is alleged that this verse is spurious, that it was invented in the 1500s, that Erasmus originally did not include it in his 'Textus Receptus' but later did when the Vatican coughed up a last-minute 'copy' of a manuscript, etc etc. In other words, the verse is spurious and ought not to be included in the Bible.

In opposition to the allegation, I submit (perhaps again) the following pertinent facts:

1. All authorities agree that the text is quoted by Cyprian in the mid 3rd century.

2. All authorities agree that Jerome not only cites the text but complains that some copyists are intentionally omitting the verse from their copies.

3. All authorities agree that Tertullian in the 2nd century refers to the verse in question.

These three points alone, which as far as I have seen are not disputed by anyone, seem to me to be conclusive as to the antiquity of the verse.

The opponents of this verse have not, as far as I am concerned, made any rational or logically consistent arguments against it. 'It is not found in the majority of manuscripts', they say. Yet, the same objectors put forward numerous other readings in other places which are 'not found in the majority of manuscripts'. They appeal to 'the oldest manuscripts' which, surprise surprise, read differently than 'the majority of manuscripts' and which, surprise surprise, read differently from each other as well. In other words, those who oppose the Johannine Comma are inconsistent in their argumentation. They argue the verse is spurious because it is not found in a majority of manuscripts, yet they accept as genuine various other readings that are likewise 'not found in a majority of manuscripts'. They argue the verse is spurious because it is not found in 'old' manuscripts, yet it is quoted as scripture by sources older than any of the 'oldest manuscripts' in existence! Not to mention the fact the 'old manuscripts' differ wildly (as well as widely) in tons of places with one another.

In short, the Johannine Comma has not been shown to be an interpolation, and the arguments against it are irrational and inconsistent.

[Esaias]

Here's an interesting article on the subject: http://brandplucked.webs.com/1john57.htm

The author is, of course, trinitarian, but he includes the following fascinating information which I had not noticed before:

"Both UBS texts list Priscillian (380 AD) bishop of Avila, in support of the Three heavenly witnesses in 1 John 5:7 and many sites list him as “a Spanish heretic”. And What exactly was his heresy? He DIDN’T BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY! Yet he himself writes in Liber Apologeticus: “As John says "and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."


Priscillian (who lived in the 4th century) said in 350 A.D., “As John says, “There are three that give testimony in earth: the water, the flesh and the blood; and these three are one and there are three that give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Spirit; and these three are one in Christ Jesus.” (see http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-fat...ost-in-1-john- 57#TOC-Priscillian-350-AD-).

Vigilius Tapsensis (who lived in the 5th century) stated in 450 A.D., “Also to the Parthians, ‘There are three’, He says, ‘that bear record in earth, the water, the blood and the flesh, and the three are in us. And there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.” (Vigilius Tapsensis, Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7), (KJV Today), “Latin fathers”). He also said in 480 A.D., “...the Evangelist John says in his Epistle: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Spirit, and they are one in the Lord Jesus Christ...” (see http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-fat...#TOC-Vigilius- Tapsensis-450-)." (end of quote)

Notice, that some of the older witnesses to the Comma include the words '...in Christ Jesus'. That is, at least some folks back in the 4th and 5th centuries understood 'the three' to be 'one IN CHRIST JESUS'. The Father, the Word, and the Spirit are 'one in Christ'...!!!!

[Esaias]

Finally, one more quote from the webpage:

"Another very common objection to 1 John 5:7 is the allegation that Erasmus said he would include the verse if he found a Greek manuscript that contained it. Then almost made to order, hot off the presses, one appeared. Bruce Metzger who was partly responsible for propagating this urban myth at least had the integrity to retract this false accusation in the 3rd edition of his book. Here is the exact quote from Mr. Metzger himself.


"What is said on p. 101 above about Erasmus' promise to include the Comma Johanneum if one Greek manuscript were found that contained it, and his subsequent suspicion that MS 61 was written expressly to force him to do so, needs to be corrected in the light of the research of H. J. DeJonge, a specialist in Erasmian studies who finds no explicit evidence that supports this frequently made assertion." Bruce M. Metzger, The Text of The New Testament, 3rd Edition, p 291 fn 2."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Here's an interesting article on the subject: http://brandplucked.webs.com/1john57.htm

The author is, of course, trinitarian, but he includes the following fascinating information which I had not noticed before:

"Both UBS texts list Priscillian (380 AD) bishop of Avila, in support of the Three heavenly witnesses in 1 John 5:7 and many sites list him as “a Spanish heretic”. And What exactly was his heresy? He DIDN’T BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY! Yet he himself writes in Liber Apologeticus: “As John says "and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."


Priscillian (who lived in the 4th century) said in 350 A.D., “As John says, “There are three that give testimony in earth: the water, the flesh and the blood; and these three are one and there are three that give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Spirit; and these three are one in Christ Jesus.” (see http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-fat...ost-in-1-john- 57#TOC-Priscillian-350-AD-).

Vigilius Tapsensis (who lived in the 5th century) stated in 450 A.D., “Also to the Parthians, ‘There are three’, He says, ‘that bear record in earth, the water, the blood and the flesh, and the three are in us. And there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.” (Vigilius Tapsensis, Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7), (KJV Today), “Latin fathers”). He also said in 480 A.D., “...the Evangelist John says in his Epistle: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Spirit, and they are one in the Lord Jesus Christ...” (see http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-fat...#TOC-Vigilius- Tapsensis-450-)." (end of quote)

Notice, that some of the older witnesses to the Comma include the words '...in Christ Jesus'. That is, at least some folks back in the 4th and 5th centuries understood 'the three' to be 'one IN CHRIST JESUS'. The Father, the Word, and the Spirit are 'one in Christ'...!!!!

Awesome!

[Scott Pitta]

The comma is a very old reading. But a reading with only 4 manuscripts to back it up is a reading that lacks justification of being entered into the text. Shall all readings with only 4 manuscripts to back it up be included into the Greek text of the NT ?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

The comma is a very old reading. But a reading with only 4 manuscripts to back it up is a reading that lacks justification of being entered into the text. Shall all readings with only 4 manuscripts to back it up be included into the Greek text of the NT ?

If this is true then NOT ONE MODERN TRANSLATION is reliable, because they ALL include readings with minority textual support.

[Scott Pitta]

That is a fair statement. Manuscripts are weighed and counted, not just counted.

There is a considerable amount of examination given to textual variants. But not to the comma in question. It lacks the evidence needed for inclusion. Is it an old rating ? Yes. Does it have the support it need for inclusion ? I think not.