Initial evidence

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It appears that Tithesmeister isn't reading all the posts. Because I am not "equating speaking in tongues with prophesying", period, full stop. Please re-read what was actually posted. I showed the following:

1. The Old Testament identifies "prophesying" as the universal experience of those who would receive the outpouring of the Spirit.

2. The book of Acts identifies "speaking with other tongues" as the fulfillment or actualizing of #1.

3. Therefore, "speaking with other tongues" is the universal experience of those who receive the outpouring of the Spirit.

4. NT distinctions between "prophesying" and "speaking with tongues" do not impair #1-#3 above, precisely because the OT does not have the category of "speaking with other tongues" as a discussion point, everything is subsumed under the OT category "to prophesy".

5. In Acts 19, they spake with tongues and prophesied. In Acts 10 they spake with tongues and magnified God. In Acts 2 they spake with tongues. People understood them to be magnifying God ("declaring the wonderful works of God"). It has been MY personal experience that everyone I have ever known who receives the Holy Ghost speaks with tongues, AND MAGNIFIES GOD/PRAISES GOD under the influences of the Spirit. Which means they are literally "speaking with tongues and prophesying", since prophesying is by definition "speaking by the impulse of the Spirit".

I like it

[Amanah]

TM, you were questioning me about whether tongues saves you. It's a process. Here are scriptures related to justification, sanctification, and glorification.

JUSTIFICATION

1. Romans 3:24-25: "Justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus... through faith in His blood."

2. Romans 5:1: "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."

3. Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."

4. Acts 13:39: "And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."

5. Titus 3:7: "That having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

6. Romans 4:2-5: Abraham's example of justification by faith, not works.

7. Philippians 3:9: "And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith."

Justification is the act of God declaring a sinner righteous through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from works or personal merit. This doctrine is a cornerstone of Christian theology, emphasizing God's grace and mercy in salvation.

SANCTIFICATION

Sanctification is the process of being made holy, set apart for God's purposes, and becoming more like Jesus Christ. Here are key scriptures:

1. 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

3. Hebrews 10:10: "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

4. 1 Peter 3:15: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you."

5. John 17:17: "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."

6. Romans 6:19: "I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness."

7. 2 Corinthians 7:1: "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Sanctification is:

- A one-time event (positionally sanctified through Christ's sacrifice)
- An ongoing process (progressively becoming more like Christ)
- A cooperative effort (working with the Holy Spirit to produce fruit)

GLORIFICATION

Glorification is the final stage of salvation, where believers are transformed into the likeness of Christ and receive their eternal inheritance. Here are key scriptures:

1. Romans 8:30: "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

2. 1 Corinthians 15:49-53: "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man... This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

3. Philippians 3:20-21: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body."

4. Colossians 3:4: "When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."

5. 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

Glorification involves:

- Receiving a glorified body (1 Corinthians 15:42-44)
- Being conformed to Christ's image (Romans 8:29)
- Sharing in Christ's glory (John 17:22)
- Receiving eternal inheritance (1 Peter 1:4)

These scriptures show that glorification is the ultimate goal of salvation, where believers are fully transformed into the likeness of Christ and enjoy eternal fellowship with Him.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It appears that Tithesmeister isn't reading all the posts. Because I am not "equating speaking in tongues with prophesying", period, full stop. Please re-read what was actually posted. I showed the following:

1. The Old Testament identifies "prophesying" as the universal experience of those who would receive the outpouring of the Spirit.

2. The book of Acts identifies "speaking with other tongues" as the fulfillment or actualizing of #1.

3. Therefore, "speaking with other tongues" is the universal experience of those who receive the outpouring of the Spirit.

4. NT distinctions between "prophesying" and "speaking with tongues" do not impair #1-#3 above, precisely because the OT does not have the category of "speaking with other tongues" as a discussion point, everything is subsumed under the OT category "to prophesy".

5. In Acts 19, they spake with tongues and prophesied. In Acts 10 they spake with tongues and magnified God. In Acts 2 they spake with tongues. People understood them to be magnifying God ("declaring the wonderful works of God"). It has been MY personal experience that everyone I have ever known who receives the Holy Ghost speaks with tongues, AND MAGNIFIES GOD/PRAISES GOD under the influences of the Spirit. Which means they are literally "speaking with tongues and prophesying", since prophesying is by definition "speaking by the impulse of the Spirit".

Would that everyone could have such excellent teaching as we have here on our little forum.

[Amanah]

Here's a simplified version of Esaias' post, which you might want to take the time to read what he originally posted:

The prophecy of Joel states that God will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, and people will prophesy, see visions, and dream dreams (Joel 2:28-32). Peter quotes this prophecy in Acts 2:17-21, saying "This is that" which was spoken by Joel, indicating that the outpouring of the Spirit is fulfilled in the disciples speaking in tongues.

The initial evidence of receiving the Spirit is prophesying, which means speaking forth whatever the Spirit leads you to speak. In the New Testament, speaking in tongues is the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, as seen in Acts 2:1-4, where the disciples spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The speaking in tongues was not for preaching to foreigners but was a supernatural phenomenon where each person in the crowd heard every disciple speaking in their own native language (Acts 2:5-6). This was a universal sign of receiving the Spirit, and Peter identified it as the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.

The New Testament distinguishes between prophesying and speaking in tongues, but both are ecstatic utterances by the Spirit. The old testament indicates that prophesying can take various forms, including music and vision.

In conclusion, the old testament teaches a universal initial evidence of receiving the Spirit, identified as prophesying, which is fulfilled by speaking in tongues in the New Testament. Every time receiving the Spirit is mentioned, speaking in tongues is present, indicating a theological significance.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If I stick to the actual grammar of Luke's record, I must conclude EACH visitor heard THE DISCIPLES (plural, THEM, not some, not one, but the whole group) speaking in that visitor's language. In order to conclude differently, I have to play loose with the text and discount the idea that the account is meant to be taken exactly as written.

Acts 2:7-8 (NKJV) 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 “And how [is it that] we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

Do you think they all actually asked the exact question one to another? That’s what the grammar says.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

TM, you were questioning me about whether tongues saves you. It's a process. Here are scriptures related to justification, sanctification, and glorification.

JUSTIFICATION

1. Romans 3:24-25: "Justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus... through faith in His blood."

2. Romans 5:1: "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."

3. Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."

4. Acts 13:39: "And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."

5. Titus 3:7: "That having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

6. Romans 4:2-5: Abraham's example of justification by faith, not works.

7. Philippians 3:9: "And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith."

Justification is the act of God declaring a sinner righteous through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from works or personal merit. This doctrine is a cornerstone of Christian theology, emphasizing God's grace and mercy in salvation.

SANCTIFICATION

Sanctification is the process of being made holy, set apart for God's purposes, and becoming more like Jesus Christ. Here are key scriptures:

1. 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

3. Hebrews 10:10: "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

4. 1 Peter 3:15: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you."

5. John 17:17: "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."

6. Romans 6:19: "I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness."

7. 2 Corinthians 7:1: "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Sanctification is:

- A one-time event (positionally sanctified through Christ's sacrifice)
- An ongoing process (progressively becoming more like Christ)
- A cooperative effort (working with the Holy Spirit to produce fruit)

GLORIFICATION

Glorification is the final stage of salvation, where believers are transformed into the likeness of Christ and receive their eternal inheritance. Here are key scriptures:

1. Romans 8:30: "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

2. 1 Corinthians 15:49-53: "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man... This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

3. Philippians 3:20-21: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body."

4. Colossians 3:4: "When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."

5. 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

Glorification involves:

- Receiving a glorified body (1 Corinthians 15:42-44)
- Being conformed to Christ's image (Romans 8:29)
- Sharing in Christ's glory (John 17:22)
- Receiving eternal inheritance (1 Peter 1:4)

These scriptures show that glorification is the ultimate goal of salvation, where believers are fully transformed into the likeness of Christ and enjoy eternal fellowship with Him.

Sister,
I believe that we should be able to preach (explain) the gospel so that it should be understood on a third grade level. While everything you have said may well be true, it requires a doctorate in divinity to understand or teach. Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. I think it’s great to thresh doctrine out on this forum. But if you come at young children and perhaps even someone who is impaired from repeated exposure to addictive substances (ie they who typically need salvation) their eyes will glaze over long before they get to the sanctification level of understanding. I prefer to keep salvation simple. I think it is. I believe salvation and perfection are overwhelming to the average person who needs God. They typically aren’t looking down the road that far. If you come with the simplified plan of salvation and they want to learn more, that’s when you bring out the steak and potatoes. Until then? Maybe start out with milk. That’s my goal anyway.

Respectfully though. It’s all good. It can just be overwhelming.

[Amanah]

I was raised by an Catholic Mom, who rarely went to church. We were living in Virginia my Dad was stationed at Langley even though he was a Colonel In the Army.

My Mom was invited to attend church with a Pentecostal lady she met and she took me with her. I was nine and had never heard anything about the Holy Spirit. But when the preacher gave the message I got up and went the altar and prayed and God filled me with the Spirit and I was speaking in tongues and knew I was having an encounter with God. The preacher explained it to me afterwards.

We moved to Florida when I was fifteen, a street preacher walked up to me at the mall and showed me Acts 2:38 in his Bible and asked me if I wanted to be baptized and I agreed. Pastor Joel Velie baptized me.

Still wasn't going to church. But I told my Sister about the Holy Ghost and being baptized in Jesus name.

When I was 24, my Sister called me and said she went to a revival and a preacher baptized her in Jesus name and she received the Holy Ghost. And he was starting a church at Eau Gallie Women's club and did I want to come. And I did. Pastor PT McClure.

God is amazing. All we need is simple child like faith to believe. He was reaching for me my whole life. How I adore Him how amazing He is, how kind.

When my Son was a young boy a growth came up on his shoulder. The Dr surgerically removed it but it came back. Something came all over me and I said, we're going to believe for that growth to fall off your body in Jesus name and never come back. Glory to God! That is exactly what happened.

This gift of the Holy Ghost is for whosoever will to come to drink freely of the river. Out of your belly shall flow rivers of living rivers of living water and you too can be filled with Spirit speaking in a language you did not learn as the Holy Ghost speaks through you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I was raised by an Catholic Mom, who rarely went to church. We were living in Virginia my Dad was stationed at Langley even though he was a Colonel In the Army.

My Mom was invited to attend church with a Pentecostal lady she met and she took me with her. I was nine and had never heard anything about the Holy Spirit. But when the preacher gave the message I got up and went the altar and prayed and God filled me with the Spirit and I was speaking in tongues and knew I was having an encounter with God. The preacher explained it to me afterwards.

We moved to Florida when I was fifteen, a street preacher walked up to me at the mall and showed me Acts 2:38 in his Bible and asked me if I wanted to be baptized and I agreed. Pastor Joel Velie baptized me.

Still wasn't going to church. But I told my Sister about the Holy Ghost and being baptized in Jesus name.

When I was 24, my Sister called me and said she went to a revival and a preacher baptized her in Jesus name and she received the Holy Ghost. And he was starting a church at Eau Gallie Women's club and did I want to come. And I did. Pastor PT McClure.

God is amazing. All we need is simple child like faith to believe. He was reaching for me my whole life. How I adore Him how amazing He is, how kind.

When my Son was a young boy a growth came up on his shoulder. The Dr surgerically removed it but it came back. Something came all over me and I said, we're going to believe for that growth to fall off your body in Jesus name and never come back. Glory to God! That is exactly what happened.

This gift of the Holy Ghost is for whosoever will to come to drink freely of the river. Out of your belly shall flow rivers of living rivers of living water and you too can be filled with Spirit speaking in a language you did not learn as the Holy Ghost speaks through you.

PRAISE JESUS!!!

It’s real, it’s real, I know it’s real! It’s the Pentecostal blessing, and Lord I know it’s real!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Sister,
I believe that we should be able to preach (explain) the gospel so that it should be understood on a third grade level. While everything you have said may well be true, it requires a doctorate in divinity to understand or teach. Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. I think it’s great to thresh doctrine out on this forum. But if you come at young children and perhaps even someone who is impaired from repeated exposure to addictive substances (ie they who typically need salvation) their eyes will glaze over long before they get to the sanctification level of understanding. I prefer to keep salvation simple. I think it is. I believe salvation and perfection are overwhelming to the average person who needs God. They typically aren’t looking down the road that far. If you come with the simplified plan of salvation and they want to learn more, that’s when you bring out the steak and potatoes. Until then? Maybe start out with milk. That’s my goal anyway.

Respectfully though. It’s all good. It can just be overwhelming.

I was biker when I had my come to Jesus meeting.

[Esaias]

How did the other thread get locked? Is Don a moderator? Or did Votive drop by and lock it?