John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Amanah]

There are no biblical examples of anyone ever being justified other than by faith:

Hebrews 11, often referred to as the "Hall of Faith," presents a compelling narrative of individuals who demonstrated extraordinary faith in the face of adversity. When considered in conjunction with Romans 1-3, which emphasizes justification by faith, Hebrews 11 provides a rich tapestry of examples that illustrate the power and significance of faith in achieving righteousness.

The author of Hebrews 11 masterfully weaves together stories of Old Testament figures, highlighting their trust in God's promises and His divine character. From Abel's offering to Rahab's hospitality, each account testifies to the transformative impact of faith on human lives. By citing these examples, the author of Hebrews 11 demonstrates that faith has always been the currency of justification, the means by which humanity can approach a holy God.

In Romans 1-3, Paul expounds on the doctrine of justification by faith, underscoring that all humanity has fallen short of God's glory and that faith in Jesus Christ is the sole means of redemption. He writes, "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Romans 3:28). This concept is not a novel idea but rather the culmination of the faith principle that has been evident throughout history.

Hebrews 11 illuminates the lives of those who embodied this faith principle, demonstrating that justification by faith is not exclusive to the New Testament era. The faith of Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham, among others, was credited to them as righteousness, echoing Paul's assertion in Romans 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.'"

The examples in Hebrews 11 also highlight the challenges and struggles that accompanied the exercise of faith. Many of these individuals faced persecution, hardship, and uncertainty, yet their trust in God remained unwavering. This resilience serves as a testament to the power of faith to overcome adversity and secure justification.

In conclusion, Hebrews 11, when considered in light of Romans 1-3, provides a rich tapestry of examples that illustrate the significance of faith in achieving justification. The faith of Old Testament figures serves as a precursor to the justifying faith that Paul expounds upon in Romans, demonstrating that faith has always been the means by which humanity can approach a holy God. As we reflect on these examples, we are reminded that justification by faith is not solely a New Testament concept but a timeless principle that has been woven throughout human history.

[Amanah]

We are justified by faith, but genuine faith produces works of obedience to God's word.

The book of James, written by Jesus' brother James, emphasizes the importance of works as evidence of genuine faith. Here's a summary:

James 1:1-18: James introduces himself and encourages believers to consider trials as opportunities for growth, asking God for wisdom.

James 1:19-27: He stresses the importance of listening to and obeying God's Word, warning against mere hearers who deceive themselves.

James 2:1-13: James uses the example of Abraham and Rahab to demonstrate that faith is made complete by works, citing Genesis 15:6 and Joshua 2:1-22.

James 2:14-26: He argues that faith without works is dead, using the example of a brother or sister in need, and highlights the importance of showing compassion.

James 3:1-18: James warns about the dangers of the tongue, emphasizing the need for wise speech and pure conduct.

James 4:1-17: He encourages humility, submission to God, and resistance to the devil, emphasizing the importance of drawing near to God.

James 5:1-20: James condemns the rich who exploit the poor and encourages patience, prayer, and confession of sins.

Throughout the book, James emphasizes that genuine faith produces works, using examples from the Old Testament and everyday life to illustrate this point. He stresses that faith is not just intellectual assent but a lived-out reality, demonstrated through obedience, compassion, and wise living.

In essence, James shows that true faith is not just about what we say we believe but about how we live out those beliefs in practical ways, demonstrating our faith through works.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

That is a good relevant question; and hard to answer in a few words. Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God? Or is it here: Love God, that is the great commandment, and your neighbour as yourself? Perhaps, in the context of this Ro2 discussion, it would be best to let the scripture define it. Paul describes a right-living man as one who shows the work of the law written on his heart. Come judgement day this right-living man has a heart and conscience which doesn't condemn him. Your turn. How would you describe a right-living man?

Jeremiah 31:33 is speaking of the Christ sowing the seed upon the hearts of the righteous. The parable of the sower explains how the seed is sown in the HEARTS of men. This is how men would have a desire to know God. This is the only way for men to have the law written in their hearts. Hebrews 13:10 is in the same book in which you quote Hebrews 8:10. A “right living” man is one who hears the law and obeys it, and therefore has the school master lead them to Christ.

[donfriesen1]

Answer this question and it may help unravel Ro2 for you. Does a man need to enter covenant to receive a blessing from God? OR, said another way, Is the only way to receive a blessing from God to have a covenant relationship with him? Does the Bible show an example of any who aren't in a covenant receiving a blessing? Does God ever have any type of relationship with Man without a covenant? When Hagar was kicked out of his house, from under the wings of Abraham's covenant with God, had she entered her own covenant with God to receive her blessing or was it without? What of Ahab, who is the standard raised of bad boys others are compared with, in the healing he received as an idolater? When Naaman received his blessing, also healing, was he in a covenant relationship with God? Don't these examples show that a person can receive something from God outside of covenant? Yes, of course. If God finds himself able to give temporal blessings to someone without covenant, what is to prevent him from also giving eternal blessings? What is the principle which would deny it? That is my point in referring to Ro2, where Gentiles who have not the law receive a blessing from God. Any commenting on this, plz, just comment on the general gist of what is said and avoid picking it apart attempting to discredit the author by exposing discrepancies in details. That is tiring.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Jeremiah 31:33 is speaking of the Christ sowing the seed upon the hearts of the righteous. The parable of the sower explains how the seed is sown in the HEARTS of men. This is how men would have a desire to know God. This is the only way for men to have the law written in their hearts. Hebrews 13:10 is in the same book in which you quote Hebrews 8:10. A “right living” man is one who hears the law and obeys it, and therefore has the school master lead them to Christ.

I see a difference between those who desire covenant and those who have never heard that a covenant is possible - those who have not the law.Ro2.14 . Many arguments, made in this thread countering my view point, focus only on covenant, which are appropriate and true for those in a covenant place but not to any outside of covenant. Do covenant rules apply to those outside of covenant? Was a Gentile considered a sinner as uncircumcised, when that law only applied to those who said they were in covenant? I think not. See also post 104.

[Amanah]

Here are some Scriptures that refute the idea of resurrection to eternal life outside of a covenant relationship with Yahweh/Jesus Messiah:

- John 14:6 - Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

- Acts 4:12 - "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

- 1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." (Implies resurrection to life is through Christ alone)

- 1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."

- Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

- Revelation 20:15 - "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." (Implies only those in covenant relationship with God through Christ will have eternal life)

These Scriptures emphasize that:

- Jesus is the only way to eternal life and the Father.
- Salvation and resurrection to life are only through Christ.
- Faith in God and His Messiah is essential to pleasing Him and receiving eternal life.
- Only those in covenant relationship with God through Christ will have their names written in the Book of Life and receive eternal life.

These passages refute the idea that someone can be resurrected to eternal life outside of a covenant relationship with Yahweh/Jesus Messiah.

[donfriesen1]

Amanah, re: post 106. Well spoken, but aren't these verses all addressed to people who place themselves in covenant? Paul speaks to those, in Ro2.12-16, who can't be in covenant because they have no law. Paul describes them as fit for heaven by clear consciences in opposition to what you speak of, which is fit for heaven in those in a covenant place. Both of these situations are God's Word and both should be embraced as truth.

Cornelius is described by the writer of Acts, Luke, who likely never actually met Cornelius but repeats/relies on others for what was known of Cornelius before his conversion to Christianity. What say you of the man from the following description?: Ac10.2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. Was not the opinion, of those present to meet him, an opinion of a righteous man? Or does this describe someone who is unrighteous, going to hell? What say you? Can you give a direct yes or no answer? Does a just God condemn a right living person to the lake of fire? As I pointed out in post 48 that Cornelius was righteous but needing to be born again, as also all the Apostles needed to be on the day of Pentecost. They themselves needed to be baptized in Jesus name, not yet having done so. I hear Peter calling over to John as they baptized the 3000 and asking John - have you been baptized in Jesus name? And John saying, No, but plz do the honour and baptize me. And they baptize each other. (But some will jump all over me because I make up an example. I'll likely be accused of adding to the Word by those who are unable to discern what a person says in a general statement without tearing it apart, nit-picking at the details for something to denigrade me by.) And this is said of those who just a few days earlier heard Jesus say to them that they are clean through the Word. (Those that nit-pick about details will say they aren't clean because one of them, Judas Iscariot was unclean.) Those who wish to ignore the general points I make, try to make me appear as someone who doesn't believe in the new birth but as someone who believes in salvation by good works by insinuating that I didn't believe that Cornelius needed to be saved the NT way, born again. This is purposely done by them in wanting to discredit my points by casting shadows on me by insinuating that I did not believe in the new birth, when I had already pointed out that the angel had sent Cornelius to get Peter to get Cornelius saved. A Man may be righteous but still in need of the new birth. Can I get an Amen? Something is at work behind the scenes which compels someone to use tactics like those used to make others think I wasn't seeing Cornelius's needing to be born again, (the same as the 'clean Apostles' who needed to be born again in spite of being 'clean'), when I had already pointed this need out in that post. Why these tactics are done is beyond me.

The following question I had asked wasn't answered by anyone. Would a person such as Cornelius, who is described as righteous by those born-again persons who were present, have gone to hell had he died before meeting Peter. Why does anyone hesitate answering this question succinctly? (The nit-pickers will say that I can't prove that Luke was born again, because that's what they do - nitpick at the details instead of trying to grasp the general arguments as presented.) No one reading this would think to say Yes, yet all remained silent. Paul would say No. That is the point Paul is making in Ro2, that a person can be seen as righteous who isn't in the covenant. Yet it appears that most commenters on this tread would happily ignore Paul's teaching and instead say that Cornelius was destined for hell, until he was born again. Common sense tells the Christian that this judgement of Cornelius as righteous before he met Peter would make God appear just when he was admitted to heaven in this righteous unborn state. (The nit-pickers will say God doesn't use common sense to make judgements but his Word.) Thankfully, for all those living-right but not ever having heard of the new birth, God will not condemn these to hell, accepting them into heaven though not born again. (What will happen now is that a multitude of verses will be quoted by those who are eager to condemn all those who aren't born again even though not having heard of it, which verses rightly apply only to those who have heard about the new birth, trying to show my opinion/Paul's as wrong. These verses will, of course, be seen right in their place when applied to those in covenant but not right in all places, as in Paul's Ro2 example. (Let's all make a covenant to walk in agreement with Paul in all the things he says. I'll continue to stand with Paul and declare that some from the NT times who have never heard of the new birth will gain entrance to heaven though not born again, if they live right.)

For those who are bent on describing me as believing in salvation by good works inspite of my assertions to the contrary, I'd like to add the following in caps and underlined with the hopes that they will stop trying to distort what I generally say. I BELIEVE IN SALVATION BY FAITH IN JESUS FOR FULL NT SALVATION. I know this won't stop them because of that hidden agenda, but I have to try.

[Amanah]

It is impossible for us to be saved
because of our works of righteousness

Romans 3:10-12:
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

We can only be saved by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Ghost

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

... Why these tactics are done is beyond me.

The following question I had asked wasn't answered by anyone. Would a person such as Cornelius, who is described as righteous by those born-again persons who were present, have gone to hell had he died before meeting Peter. Why does anyone hesitate answering this question succinctly?

Now I know you are intellectually dishonest. I addressed this question about Cornelius. . "Why these tactics are done is beyond me"? You sad, dishonourable, and dishonest man.

Nobody accused you of being underhanded and subversive, yet here you are complaining ad nauseum about how "some people" are just that towards you, all because they simply don't buy your baloney. You don't even have the integrity and forthrightness to just come on out and say ESAIAS is the one making all those naughty posts you don't like.

What a joke. Oh well, into the ignore bin you go.

Titus 3:10-11 KJV
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; [11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Answer this question and it may help unravel Ro2 for you. Does a man need to enter covenant to receive a blessing from God? OR, said another way, Is the only way to receive a blessing from God to have a covenant relationship with him? Does the Bible show an example of any who aren't in a covenant receiving a blessing? Does God ever have any type of relationship with Man without a covenant? When Hagar was kicked out of his house, from under the wings of Abraham's covenant with God, had she entered her own covenant with God to receive her blessing or was it without? What of Ahab, who is the standard raised of bad boys others are compared with, in the healing he received as an idolater? When Naaman received his blessing, also healing, was he in a covenant relationship with God? Don't these examples show that a person can receive something from God outside of covenant? Yes, of course. If God finds himself able to give temporal blessings to someone without covenant, what is to prevent him from also giving eternal blessings? What is the principle which would deny it? That is my point in referring to Ro2, where Gentiles who have not the law receive a blessing from God. Any commenting on this, plz, just comment on the general gist of what is said and avoid picking it apart attempting to discredit the author by exposing discrepancies in details. That is tiring.

Picking apart dialogue is part of any discussion.


So as not to tire you out I’ll present my objections. The Old Testament God winked at man’s ignorance. But in the advent of Christ all men are commanded to repent. There is only one way to enter into the sheepfold. Anyone teaching that there is any other entrance is a criminal . John 10:1-16 Goes into detail explaining how criminals who came before the advent of Christ misled the sheep. So, they would not recognize Christ at His coming. Only the devout would be able to recognize Christ and understand His Gospel. Jesus spoke in parables so they would look, but they wouldn’t really see. They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand. In this Jesus was quoting the prophet, and pointing to how parables were to only allow the devout to enter in at the Sheepfold door. Christ is only for the devout who sell all they own to buy the Pearl of great price. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. No one can enter into the kingdom any other way but through Jesus Christ. Matthew 7:13-14 Is plain. The road which leads to destruction is wide, and its gate without a door. The road to eternal life is narrow and its opening is small. Jesus said, the few would find the entrance. Only through the blood of Christ, only through the Gospel can anyone be saved.