Random Questions Thread

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

In Ecclesiastes Solomon said:
"The greater my wisdom, the greater my grief.
To increase knowledge only increases sorrow."

I'm betting your church mates are happy as clams.
As the saying goes "ignorance is bliss"

It's God's Church so it's up to Him to sort things out.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Biting one’s tongue is truly an admirable superpower. Much respect my brother.
Having to school those who aren’t being led by God to sincerely search for truth is casting pearl. The sadness is that these poor souls can’t see that they are believing another Gospel. Which there isn’t another. But they believe as some Christians that there is another way of salvation other than the Cross of Christ.

Through Dispensationalism soteriology is affected. We have individuals who believe they cannot judge those who are Jewish or Trinitarians. Under the auspices that only God knows the heart of men. Or only God knows who the lineage of a Jew. Or God will save through some ecclesiastical default. Yet, the Gospel is what is at stake. Not all Dispensationalists would even dream of thinking that there is another way to enter Heaven other than the shed blood of Christ. Especially Apostolic Pentecostals since our bread and butter is Acts 2:38. Still, when approached with questions who will be raptured, and who will be left behind? Some have a puzzled look, when questioned. Will the Jew being going up? Or will the modern Jew ( those who survive the tribulation) make it into the millennial kingdom? By passing the death, burial, and resurrection? The Mormon is taught that they are in the restored truth. This isn’t truth which is taught by research and study. This truth is gained through what they call a burning in the bosom. Therefore since they believe it’s a spiritual revelation from Heavenly Father. They are hard pressed to admit they were wrong. It’s a cognitive dissonance. Which affects people when they have to be pressed how their soteriology and eschatology clash. Only the Holy Ghost can lead us to all truth. Therefore it’s more than a burning in the bosom, or believing in something because we are told it by the ministry. It’s Spirit and Truth we must bow before. We can’t force anyone or guilt anyone to see the truth. We must trust Jesus Christ to call His sheep. As Sister Amanah said “It's God's Church so it's up to Him to sort things out.”

[shag]

Q

I will build my church
Vs
I will rebuild my church


There was a “church(ecclessia)in the woods”
yet Jesus said I will build…

When I build something like a barn, a model car, a skyscraper, a bridge….its not there at all. However, I need materials to build it. If it’s a build, I usually use new materials. If it’s a build, I’d use new materials. If it’s a rebuild, though, I would use old materials. Are the materials to build his new covenant ecclesia made up of old covenant “church in the woods/(“ecclesial called out assembly”)? And we NT church are added to the ot church, as adjoining the one body?

I’m looking at the terms build vs rebuild.
He said build, he did not say rebuild.

If he said rebuild what would that mean?
If he said build, and he did, what exactly does that mean?

Does that mean create out of nothing?
Does that mean he brought in completely new materials as in new people to totally create a different building or church?

Trying to understand this, but I must unquestionably remain true to the scriptures, even if I don’t like what it says.

It does not say rebuild.
It does not say reconstruct.
It does say, build.


https://biblehub.com/matthew/16-18.htm

[Amanah]

- Revelation 21:12-14 (KJV)

"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

This passage describes the New Jerusalem, symbolizing the church, with twelve gates representing the twelve tribes of Israel and twelve foundations representing the twelve apostles. This imagery emphasizes the connection between the Old Testament people of God (the twelve tribes) and the New Testament apostles, highlighting the unity and continuity of God's people.

Note that Ephesians 2:20 also mentions the church being built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Q

I will build my church
Vs
I will rebuild my church


There was a “church(ecclessia)in the woods”
yet Jesus said I will build…

When I build something like a barn, a model car, a skyscraper, a bridge….its not there at all. However, I need materials to build it. If it’s a build, I usually use new materials. If it’s a build, I’d use new materials. If it’s a rebuild, though, I would use old materials. Are the materials to build his new covenant ecclesia made up of old covenant “church in the woods/(“ecclesial called out assembly”)? And we NT church are added to the ot church, as adjoining the one body?

I’m looking at the terms build vs rebuild.
He said build, he did not say rebuild.

If he said rebuild what would that mean?
If he said build, and he did, what exactly does that mean?

Does that mean create out of nothing?
Does that mean he brought in completely new materials as in new people to totally create a different building or church?

Trying to understand this, but I must unquestionably remain true to the scriptures, even if I don’t like what it says.

It does not say rebuild.
It does not say reconstruct.
It does say, build.


https://biblehub.com/matthew/16-18.htm

1 Samuel 2:34-35 KJV
And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas; in one day they shall die both of them. [35] And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

Eli's two sons were to die, being rejected as priests by God. The priesthood then passed to Zadok. God said He would build this priest's house. So the question is, did Zadok have a house before God building him a house? Obviously, building a house for the new priest means that God would establish him in the priesthood and bless him with many descendants.

So when Jesus says He will build His church (ecclesia, congregation) on the "rock" of Peter's confession, it means that the followers of Jesus would be founded upon the confession of Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. It does not mean God had no congregation up to that time, nor that God was replacing one congregation with another wholly separate congregation. It means that the congregation would be founded upon the recognition of Jesus as the promised Messiah.

Since the people of God were transitioning from the Sinaitic Covenant into the New, Messianic, Covenant, it makes sense that Jesus would claim it as His congregation, to be built according to His new covenant principles. Much like if you have a man start a company, builds it up, then passes that company on to his son. His son decides there are going to be some changes, some advancements in the way the company is run, and holds a board meeting and announces "THIS is the way I am going to build my company". Not that the LLC itself has been dissolved and replaced by a new one, but that it has now passed into his hands and is entering a new phase of its existence and growth.

On the other hand, if we say Jesus building his church means the original congregation has been scrapped and a wholly new congregation is being built, then we have some serious contradictions with the rest of Scripture. For example:

Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

They were without Christ, but now that are with Christ. They were strangers from the covenants of promise, but now they are partakers in the covenants of promise. They had no hope, but now they have hope. They were without God in the world, but now they are with God in the world. And just so, they were foreignors from the commonwealth of Israel, but now...? Now they are fellowcitizens, meaning they are part of Israel. Israel did not cease, the congregation of the Lord did not cease and get replaced with a wholly different one, rather the uncircumcision, the Gentiles, were added to it and made part of it, in the new covenant:

Ephesians 2:19 KJV
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Also, if the church Jesus is building is a wholly separate entity from the church (ecclesia, qahal, or congregation) that was in the wilderness, then the old testament saints are not part of the church of God at all.

Now, it is clear there is some distinction. There is a definite change in administration of God's people, from old covenant to new, from Jewish to Christian, etc. In this sense, the church is a "new thing". But in the sense of being God's called out people, He has always had His church, His called out people, long before Sinai and long before Pentecost, even long before the Flood.

[shag]

Thank you both.
Good scriptural explanations.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

- Revelation 21:12-14 (KJV)

"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

This passage describes the New Jerusalem, symbolizing the church, with twelve gates representing the twelve tribes of Israel and twelve foundations representing the twelve apostles. This imagery emphasizes the connection between the Old Testament people of God (the twelve tribes) and the New Testament apostles, highlighting the unity and continuity of God's people.

Note that Ephesians 2:20 also mentions the church being built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone.

Matthew 19:27-28 KJV
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? [28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28-30 KJV
Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. [29] And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; [30] That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Matthew 19:27-28 KJV
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? [28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28-30 KJV
Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. [29] And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; [30] That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Were these disciples specifically his 12 apostles?
And were they all Jewish Christian’s?


Regarding revelation, 21
Why do 12 foundations represent the 12 apostles instead of representing the 12 tribes of Israel? (Since the 12 tribes of Israel proceeded the 12 apostles I mean)

Is the regeneration absolutely the new heavens and new earth?

Is that also the restitution of all things spoken of in the book of acts?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Were these disciples specifically his 12 apostles?
And were they all Jewish Christian’s?

What do you mean "Jewish"? Technically, they were Galileans. They followed the Sinaitic covenant, so as far as Romans were concerned they were Judeans (religiously). They were certainly Israelites, from whatever tribe(s) they were from.

Regarding revelation, 21
Why do 12 foundations represent the 12 apostles instead of representing the 12 tribes of Israel? (Since the 12 tribes of Israel proceeded the 12 apostles I mean)

The foundation is that upon which something is built, whereas the gates represent not only the entrance but also the "city hall" (the elders would sit in the gates of a city to handle the municipal matters of government). So the New Jerusalem is the Jerusalem of the New Covenant, thus it is built on the foundation of the 12 apostles (ie Christ's ministry and messengers, His doctrine as taught by his apostles). It is the New Jerusalem meaning it is still Jerusalem (as a symbol of Israel, God's covenant people). So the symbolism here is that of Israel in the New Covenant, meaning the 12 tribes with the 12 apostles. Or to put it another way the 12 tribes have entered the new covenant as taught by the 12 apostles of Jesus.

Is the regeneration absolutely the new heavens and new earth?

Not sure what you mean by "absolutely"? The regeneration begins with the resurrection of Christ, and will be culminated in the resurrection unto Life of all God's people. So the 12 apostles are currently judging the 12 tribes today in the sense that Israel has entered the new covenant and thus are under the jurisdiction and leadership of the apostles. In the resurrection, I assume the 12 apostles will have a position of leadership as Jesus said, because according to Jesus there is a hierarchy of rewards in the resurrection.

Is that also the restitution of all things spoken of in the book of acts?

I believe it is, the restitution of all things would mean the restoration of everything to its original intent and order. This would include the restoration of all Israel, the restoration of all mankind, the restoration of nature itself.

[shag]

Luke 13
22 He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’
26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.
29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.
30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”



“when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.”
&
And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.

Could you please explain this, as it relates to the passages above?