Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I really am not sure I follow you here, or what you are trying to explain with this. Can you further elaborate?

I don't understand how that wasn't clear.

When you eat your fill, you will be full.

When you receive the Holy Ghost, you will speak in tongues.

Cause versus effect. How much clearer can I make it?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

So even though the scripture says we are not His without having His Spirit(Rom.8), and they could not have had His Spirit until Acts 2:4, according to Jn 7:39, you still think they were His, before they could have been His.

Yes. When Jesus prayed in the garden for the disciples, He called them His.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Respectfullly, how can you claim they had the Spirit to some degree, when scripture says they could not have?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Where is the scripture(s) that says they had the Spirit, even though according to Jn. 7:39 the could not have had?
To answer your question, yes I can imagine tarrying and praying and not being saved, but feeling the Lord draw me toward him. Been there, done that.

But that is the spirit of the Lord at work in your heart. It is not the full measure, or full outpouring of the spirit, but the spirit of the Lord at work, nevertheless. The Holy Ghost was already at work in the hearts of John, Elizabeth, Mary, Jesus, Zacharius and Simeon.

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

What scripture is it that says if the Lord convicts / draws a sinner, they already have His Spirit dwelling in them?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by peter83

I also know that the evidence is tongues but i do not know if there are two distinct things new morn vs holy ghost baptism.
The cases are 5 :
1) they dont have the holy ghost ,they are just touched by but not dwell in them.
2) they have maybe the holy ghost but they dont speak in tongues because nobody teach them, or
3)it is not the only evidence.
4) they have the holy ghost in them but they are not "filled" with that (i listen a person say this with an example of a glass of water with some water and an other overflow)
5) They are new born because the holy spirit gives them a "new spirit" ,Jesus forgives them and they are sealed bu the holy ghost ,new creatures but they dont have the holy ghost fill them and empower them. (this one i find more logic)
Wich of them you think is "correct"?

You have raised a lot of good questions here. I hope we can discuss this further.

I believe a measure of the spirit must be present in order to believe, repent, and be baptized, but that there is also the full power or realization of that spirit that comes at a time when the Lord gifts it as He sees fit.

Jesus said He was sending the Comforter in his name, that it was a teacher, to teach truth, that it was power.

I believe the spirit of the Lord is at work to convict and turn hearts to the Lord, but that the overcoming power of the HG can come simultaneously at the time of repentance/baptism or later.

As we see in Cornelius' case, he received the HG before being baptized. Others were baptized and then received. It is not recorded in the the Apostle Paul's conversion experience that he spoke in tongues, but later he says he does, so we know at some point he began to speak in tongues.

But in every single case of conversion in the book of Acts, we find two common denominators - repentance/believing and baptism.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The best thing we can do is stand up on all of God's word. I have repented of my sins and I have been baptized in Jesus name, but there are no entitlements here. I am still only going to be saved through the mercy and the grace of God. You have questioned others on here if we thank that we are saved by tongues and the answer is no. Neither is baptism in and of itself what saves us. It is God that saves us.

It is not about a magic formula as some have made it, but instead it is about adhering to the word of God. It is God's grace that we are depending on so it must be his Word that we are to follow.

You seem to be saying that we get enough Holy Ghost up front at repentance and baptism that it is not necessary to be baptized with the Spirit. And also, that the Holy Ghost baptism (your terms as the fulness of the Spirit) is evidenced by any of the gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12. I have never known anyone to be baptized with the Holy Ghost by discerning of Spirits, etc.

You said that the fullness of the Spirit comes later. My question is how do you recognize that someone receives the fullness of the Holy Ghost?

There is a measure of the spirit of the Lord present that draws a sinner to repentance, to believe in faith in Jesus, and to be obedient in baptism. The Lord, as He sees fit, pours His spirit out in diverse ways.

1 Cor. 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

From Mark 16:16-18 we understand that the manifestation or evidence of the spirit will be in signs following.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

I'm not talking about the external presence of God which one can feel, I'm talking about the infilling of the HG. Two very different things.

So you believe the infilling of the HG is simply an added benefit, and not necessary to salvation; One may be saved by simply believing and being baptized?

You must repent, be baptized and receive the infilling of the HG to be saved. The evidence of one receiving the HG has always been tongues. Prove by scripture where the initial evidence of the infilling of the HG was anything other than tongues.

But you are taking away, because you ignore the scripture which clearly states tongues were a sign of the infilling of the HG. And by claiming Mark 16:16 is THE plan of salvation, you're removing the infilling of the spirit from salvation. You believe a person only need to believe and be baptized - no HG infilling needed.

Are you arguing with the words of Jesus in Mark 16:16-18?

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Are you arguing with the words of Jesus in Mark 16:16-18?

Mark 16:16 isn't about salvation. Read the context. The issue is the disciples lack of belief, not salvation. Jesus is angry with his disciples because of their unbelief. He's angry because they didn't believe Mary or the two others to which He appeared after His resurrection. You want to use the verse as the plan of salvation, but it's not. Salvation occurs only through the death (repentence), burial (water baptism) and resurrection (infilling of the HG). You say since Jesus Himself only mentioned believing and being baptized that those two are THE plan and that because Jesus Himself didn't mention the infilling of the HG it must not be necessary for salvation.

Yet, Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, you must be born of the water AND the spirit or you cannot enter/see the Kingdom of God. Those are His words. Are you arguing with the words of Jesus?

1. Do you believe the HG is an empowerment and not part of salvation?

2. Prove by scripture where the initial evidence of the infilling of the HG was anything other than tongues.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

Mark 16:16 isn't about salvation. Read the context. The issue is the disciples lack of belief, not salvation. Jesus is angry with his disciples because of their unbelief. He's angry because they didn't believe Mary or the two others to which He appeared after His resurrection.

Then what is the word "saved" in there alongside repentance and baptism? No, regardless of the manner in which Jesus spoke it to His disciples, the emphasis and words are very, very clear.

Are you saying that repentance and baptism are not part of salvation? Because that is what the alternative would be of your statement.

Originally Posted by n david

You want to use the verse as the plan of salvation, but it's not. Salvation occurs only through the death (repentence), burial (water baptism) and resurrection (infilling of the HG). You say since Jesus Himself only mentioned believing and being baptized that those two are THE plan and that because Jesus Himself didn't mention the infilling of the HG it must not be necessary for salvation.

Ah, but Jesus did mention the spirit... otherwise how could there be signs following? The tongues, casting out devils, healings? How could this be accomplished by none other than the Holy Ghost spirit working in a life?

This scripture irks you and you say it isn't a salvational scripture because the signs following wasn't just "tongues", but other supernatural giftings.

But in fact it is the clearest scripture we have of what salvation entails.

Again, are you arguing with the words of Jesus?

Originally Posted by n david

Yet, Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, you must be born of the water AND the spirit or you cannot enter/see the Kingdom of God. Those are His words. Are you arguing with the words of Jesus?

No absolutely not. I agree! Signs following have to be accomplished with the Spirit.

I just don't see that tongues HAS to accompany the gifting of the HG, that's quite simple to see in this passage.

Originally Posted by n david

1. Do you believe the HG is an empowerment and not part of salvation?

What did Jesus say the Holy Ghost would do? The answer is found in the scripture below:

Acts 1: 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Originally Posted by n david

2. Prove by scripture where the initial evidence of the infilling of the HG was anything other than tongues.

How about you go back and read all the accounts of people being saved in the book of Acts, and then come back and tell us how many of those people the book of Acts recorded as speaking in tongues. It's a good refresher study

Maybe just check and see where it says that the Apostle Paul spoke in tongues at his conversion too.

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Yes. When Jesus prayed in the garden for the disciples, He called them His.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

But that is the spirit of the Lord at work in your heart. It is not the full measure, or full outpouring of the spirit, but the spirit of the Lord at work, nevertheless. The Holy Ghost was already at work in the hearts of John, Elizabeth, Mary, Jesus, Zacharius and Simeon.

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

KBTW, none of the verses u post claiming that they say that a sinner has the HolySpirit dwelling in them, actually say that. It's not there. Rom 8:9-11 expressly says if one does not have to Holy Ghost/Spirit of Christ dwelling in them, they are not His. Yes, the Father had given the Son the disciples, but they were not born from above yet, they couldn't be. (No wonder Jesus told Peter" when thou art converted...after denying Him 3x., he didn't have Spirit indwelling).

That indwelling Spirit was NOT available for indwelling the believer until Pentecost, according to Jn 7:38-39.

No matter if the mother of the prophet John the Baptist was said to have His Spirit in her or not, the reason was he was the anointed prophet of God to prepare the way of the coming Messiah. He was in her womb. That's a completely different circumstances.


John 7:38-39 reads clearly, that those who believe in Him would receive His Spirit, yet it was not yet available to receive, yet you are completely denying that truth. Not yet given, because Jesus was yet glorified.
Not yet available.
You are trying to give Christs disciples something that Christ said was not yet given.


You seem to refuse, and try to refute Jn 7:38-39.



John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive;(NOT HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED LIKE YOU KEEP SAYING) for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


Please at least acknowledge that verse, and explain it.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

KBTW, none of the verses u post claiming that they say that a sinner has the HolySpirit dwelling in them, actually say that.

When did I say a sinner has the HS dwelling in them? If you have repented and been baptized, are you still a sinner?

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

It's not there. Rom 8:9-11 expressly says if one does not have to Holy Ghost/Spirit of Christ dwelling in them, they are not His. Yes, the Father had given the Son the disciples, but they were not born from above yet, they couldn't be. (No wonder Jesus told Peter" when thou art converted...after denying Him 3x., he didn't have Spirit indwelling).

That indwelling Spirit was NOT available for indwelling the believer until Pentecost, according to Jn 7:38-39.

You are right. The fullness of the spirit was not indwelling them until they had repented and been baptized. But that doesn't take away the fact that the spirit of the Lord had to be leading and moving in their hearts in order to draw them to Him in the first place.

A measure of the spirit is present at conversion, and upon repentance/baptism, the spirit is able to come in and fully dwell within, fill up, empower, and teach, as well as allow the giftings of the spirit to work.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

No matter if the mother of the prophet John the Baptist was said to have His Spirit in her or not, the reason was he was the anointed prophet of God to prepare the way of the coming Messiah. He was in her womb. That's a completely different circumstances.

No, its not a different circumstance. How do you explain Simeon, and Zacharius also being filled with the HG?

Are you saying there was a different spirit or Holy Ghost before Calvary?

I am merely saying it is the one and same spirit, but the QUANTITY changes upon being born again (repentance/baptism) and allows the spirit to gift and empower the one who has believed and been obedient.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

John 7:38-39 reads clearly, that those who believe in Him would receive His Spirit, yet it was not yet available to receive, yet you are completely denying that truth. Not yet given, because Jesus was yet glorified. Not yet available. You are trying to give Christs disciples something that Christ said was not yet given.

You seem to refuse, and try to refute Jn 7:38-39.

John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive;(NOT HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED LIKE YOU KEEP SAYING) for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Please at least acknowledge that verse, and explain it.

A measure of the spirit was already at work in their lives, but the full empowerment of the spirit was to come. They didn't have the full power yet, but they were to wait for it, it was coming.

Jesus did not say he was sending His spirit to save them, but to empower them. They were to wait to receive power from on high.

Acts 1: 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

[JamesGlen]

You keep saying "the fullness of the Spirit was not available, but they had a measure, yet that's not what Jn 7:39 says. It very clearly reads that His Spirit not available, zilch, zero, nadda, not a measure, not a 1/2 a cup, but zilch.

That scripture says not available, but you argue that it was available.
(only in a "smaller portion", or however u worded it)

How can u say it was available("small amounts") when it clearly says NOT given? (Not given means none, not at all, not even an itsy bitsy bit




But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given,(Zilch) because Jesus was not yet glorified.