It's funny how Christians are so quick to dismiss claims against their religion but don't give any other religion the same benefit of a doubt
are you kidding? really?
I have never once suggested the Hindu religion or Buddists faith or Shintoism or Confusism or Ba'hai or Zorastorism or any other religion had a violence problem
I have never argued that there arent idiots that hijack relegion.
But we are really clear about the simple fact that TODAY RIGHT NOW there is one group of people acting out on a massive scale, killing people BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION.
ONE
Not two, not ten. Not a single sect of islam, but every sect of islam killing other muslims, killing non-muslims as an act of their faith, based purely upon the idea that they are following their God, as he commands in their holy book
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Because they are too afraid to go to Muslims and tell them their profit was a pervert. They are safe among Christians but would have their heads chopped off by Muslims.
Here is yet another good point of reference.
you are right Pliny.
Lets explore.
If you take a Christian Cross, put it in a jar with urine and hang it in a museum and the "artist" gets paid for doing it by federal tax dollars, you get outrage from Christians.
It looks like this. A bunch of Christians say "that is OUTRAGEOUS!"
The next morning we all get up, go to work and move along.
You have a guy draw a picture of Muhammad in a news paper in Eruope, peaceful muslims riot the world over. death threats are issued. muslim preachers issue a thing they call a fatwa which is basically a Holy Death Warrent.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Thank you for bringing up these points. They are very good points of references to juxtapose Christianity and islam.
1. Christians who kill abortion doctors.
We agree that
A. it has happened.
now do we also agree that
A. Christian Ministers roundly reject this, speak open and often that it is NOT representative of Christianity to kill people we do not agree with
B. Understand that the actual number of murdering terrorists who actually kill abortion drs can be listed on a single hand over the last 10 years? that the number for all of the modern era is less than what? 100?
2. Catholic/Protestant Wars in Ireland.
That my friend is a misrepresentation of the history of Ireland.
It is in fact lazy to boil that down to a religious war.
The strife that STILL exists in Ireland... and that has at times blown up into actual war and terrorism is NOT religiously motivated.
Here is the very brief history. back in the 1200s Henry II invaded Ireland. This led to his taking land from the Irish and giving it to his Norman/French followers. over the centuries, English Kings dominated the Irish and they hated them for it. in the 1500s the English Monarch split with the catholic church, but the Irish maintained close ties to the Catholic church. In the wars that followed with Ireland, the Irish sought to gain their independence from the English Crown. The Crown won the wars and took land from the Irish and gave it to their followers. These followers were protestant. then came more wars.
The Irish fought the English invaders year by year, decade by decade, century by century. They fought not because one side was Protestant and they were catholic. They fought because they had been invaded by the English who were taking their land, raping their women and starving their kids.
It just so happened that the Irish were catholic and the invaders became Protestant. the war was and is over English invasions for 800 years.
3. There were the crusades. This is a well-used argument. Crusades.... So let’s review what the crusades were.
first, the lands around Jerusalem were Christian lands. controlled by the Byzantine Emperor. Then Muhammad rose to power and over a number of years, the Arabs gained control of a lot of land... including Jerusalem. BUT that wasn’t the end of their invasions. from the 600s to the 1000s Muslims expanded into Christian held lands. They took large portions of the Byzantine lands, they took portions of Italy. They took portions of southern France. They took complete control of North Africa, extinguishing entire Christian nations…it was these Islamic invasions over a 400 year period that ended Aryanism. They took almost all of what we now call Spain.
So over that period, the Christian nations fought for their survival against an enemy with a very different culture which was vastly different from the midieval wars within the Christian nations that raged at the same time. This was seen as a cultural war by both sides. Beyond that the Muslims saw themselves as the “sword of allah” and the Christians saw themselves as “defenders of the faith”. BOTH SIDES saw the invading muslims as the aggressors and the Christians as the defenders….
THEN at the same time the Vikings began their invasions from the north. Christian Europe became an armed camp every man capable of fighting was in an army marching around the countryside fighting off invader after invader. The Vikings could not simply be defeated, because more came and none were controlled by any one king. They were just marauders. So in the end, the church just went there and CONVERTED THEM thus ending the Viking invasions. BUT that left Christian Europe with a serious problem. They had HUGE armies full of men who had no trade other than fighting…. And most of those they had been fighting were no longer invading.
THIS was the political and social pressure that led the church to point toward turning from being defensive to being the aggressors where the muslims were concerned. Enter the Crusades. 400 years of pent up frustration, cultural pressure, and massive armies that were going to undo their own societies combined to form a perfect storm that brought about the Crusades. MOST of it was just socio-economic-political realities clothed in the religious language of the age.
BUT beyond that, it can be argued that John Hunyadi who died in 1456 of the plague was The Last Crusader…Certainly by the year 1500, there was no one left alive who could legitimately wear the Crusaders Cross. We have lived for 514 years, without a single Christian Crusader walking to and fro upon the earth…YESTERDAY AT THE VERY LEAST 10,000 FUTURE JIHADIES WERE BORN…
Finally, you suggest that the point of your points are that there are Christians that don’t act like me. That is true. The vast majority of people who call themselves Christians don’t act like me. I believe baptism in Jesus Name is required for salvation. I do not own a single piece of jewelry. In fact, I have never owned a wedding ring. I've been married 19 years. I do not ever go out in public wearing shorts. Period. I never drink. I think it is a sin. Those things alone, separate me from the vast majority of people who call themselves Christians. I don’t any issue with what others do.
BUT the numbers of people who call themselves Christian, have NEVER ONCE tried to kill someone for the cause of Christianity. The statistical reality is the number of such is so close to zero as to be statistically inseparable from zero.
TODAY more than one Muslim will attempt to and likely succeed in killing someone (likely a fellow muslim) because they believe their victim doesn’t believe in islam in the right way. These people number in the millions. Hundreds of millions more muslims while not actively killing people, believe such is utterly reasonable.
Because they are too afraid to go to Muslims and tell them their profit was a pervert. They are safe among Christians but would have their heads chopped off by Muslims.
Quite right! Therefore, I commend all you AFF readers here who are willing and able to talk things through instead of calling for my immediate death. Although, a few of you keep reminding me (*yawn*) about my impending eternal destruction. And although in other times and places, I would definitely fear for my life among Christians, too. Congratulations, you are all better than that. Give your god the glory! [Of course, I give wider cultural forces such as church/state separation, secular legal system, and AFF administators the glory.]
Bro. Eastman, I will be addressing the other challenges in Timmy Talk, so as to not go further off topic in this thread.
On topic point. Violence-leaning muslims merely walk by FAITH. Maybe that's how y'all "have their number" so surely!
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Happy dance doesn't explain why lying is condoned and yes even rewarded in some circumstances, in the bible. Do you have an answer to the specific passages or not? No? Then the words say that there are specific circumstances, in the bible, where lying is acceptable.
Yes many of them are not like the extremists nut jobs but try getting them to condemn their actions in Canada or ISIS and they won't
Many seem to sympathize with Hamas and other groups.
And the reason why is their global agenda is the same, to spread Islam.
Now, before someone jumps up and down about Christians spreading Christianity, we spread it by word of mouth, not by violence or force and while at one time some groups DID that in the past things have changed and most of us do not condone that sort of thing
Some points from this thread:
Christians don't lie. Lying is a mortal sin according to the bible
"moderate muslims do not condemn radical Islam"
The 21 senior clerics of Saudi Arabia labeled terrorism a "heinous crime" in a recent fatwa, or legal ruling, and the country has been increasingly vocal in its opposition to ISIS. The influential Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah, a native of Mauritania who teaches in Saudi Arabia, issued a fatwa of his own condemning the establishment of a caliphate by force. Bin Bayyah's words—"We must declare war on war so the outcome will be peace upon peace"
From the UK:
“In Islam, concern for fellow humans and the duty to help everyone is a religious obligation,” they write. “Anyone undertaking a humanitarian act is paving his or her way to receive help from heaven.
“In contrast, the senseless kidnapping and despicable threats to Mr Henning cannot be justified.”
Using Koranic references the letter says that if they are true Muslims the kidnappers – including the British man dubbed Jihadi John – must release him “immediately”.
The leaders also express their “horror and revulsion” at the “senseless murder” of the previous three hostages, including the Briton David Haines.
From Indonesia:
“The public have to be critical. This is not about [establishing] a Caliphate [Islamic State]; but [a group] working for its own cause and gains from a sectarian issue,” said Nahdlatul Ulama executive council chair, Slamet Effendy Yusuf.
The Nahdlatul Ulama is one of the largest Islamic organizations in the world and concentrates on traditional Islam. It funds schools and hospitals but is also active in politics. Muhammadiyah, an organization with 29 million members, is more modern, well-known for educational activities, and avoids politics. Secretary Abdul Mu'ti said ISIS does not represent Islam.
“That’s my point, this [movement] is not in the context of religion [Islam],” Abdul said. “We all need to question the group’s goals. Don’t just follow radicals who tried to win their own wars in other countries; we will be the ones to suffer losses.”
From Malaysia:
[I]"They are against the teachings of the Prophet, a man of peace and moderation; and against Islamic law, which prizes the protection of life above all. "Around the world, the majority of Muslims seek to live their lives free from violence. We do not recognise the vision of our faith being forced on innocent civilians… whether Sunni, Shia or Christian… over the barrel of a gun." [/I
When you make these statements aren't you actually.........lying.......about what the Muslim community says about ISIL?
Moderate Muslims are often silent, especially in some regions of the Middle East because they have often be assassinated. Many in areas outside of the Middle East want low profiles because family members have been arrested or assassinated.
The plight of the moderate Muslim has often been a rather complicated situation.
Here's a Wikipedia link to the liberal Islamic movement. Here you'll see links to schools of thought and various leaders who advocate a more moderate form of Islam.
The 21 senior clerics of Saudi Arabia labeled terrorism a "heinous crime" in a recent fatwa, or legal ruling, and the country has been increasingly vocal in its opposition to ISIS. The influential Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah, a native of Mauritania who teaches in Saudi Arabia, issued a fatwa of his own condemning the establishment of a caliphate by force. Bin Bayyah's words—"We must declare war on war so the outcome will be peace upon peace"
From the UK:
“In Islam, concern for fellow humans and the duty to help everyone is a religious obligation,” they write. “Anyone undertaking a humanitarian act is paving his or her way to receive help from heaven.
“In contrast, the senseless kidnapping and despicable threats to Mr Henning cannot be justified.”
Using Koranic references the letter says that if they are true Muslims the kidnappers – including the British man dubbed Jihadi John – must release him “immediately”.
The leaders also express their “horror and revulsion” at the “senseless murder” of the previous three hostages, including the Briton David Haines.
From Indonesia:
“The public have to be critical. This is not about [establishing] a Caliphate [Islamic State]; but [a group] working for its own cause and gains from a sectarian issue,” said Nahdlatul Ulama executive council chair, Slamet Effendy Yusuf.
The Nahdlatul Ulama is one of the largest Islamic organizations in the world and concentrates on traditional Islam. It funds schools and hospitals but is also active in politics. Muhammadiyah, an organization with 29 million members, is more modern, well-known for educational activities, and avoids politics. Secretary Abdul Mu'ti said ISIS does not represent Islam.
“That’s my point, this [movement] is not in the context of religion [Islam],” Abdul said. “We all need to question the group’s goals. Don’t just follow radicals who tried to win their own wars in other countries; we will be the ones to suffer losses.”
From Malaysia:
[I]"They are against the teachings of the Prophet, a man of peace and moderation; and against Islamic law, which prizes the protection of life above all. "Around the world, the majority of Muslims seek to live their lives free from violence. We do not recognise the vision of our faith being forced on innocent civilians… whether Sunni, Shia or Christian… over the barrel of a gun." [/I
When you make these statements aren't you actually.........lying.......about what the Muslim community says about ISIL?
The thing is, you have taqiyya as part of the muslim faith, something that isn't a part of Christianity - ever. That means no matter what is quoted by you or your people, it is never going to be fully believed to be true.
No. Read my statements again. It was not a blanket statement. I never said there isn't a Muslim anywhere that will do it
But more specifically do YOU condemn what ISIS is doing to Christians, Muslims and others?
Do you condemn the actions recently in Canada by two claiming to be Muslims?
Yea, I noticed that was absent from his page of quotes as well. I thought it was strange or maybe an oversight. Definetely nice to see his page of quotes though
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