God Does Not Use The "works Of The Devil"

[Bro-Larry]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I do. My point should be obvious. With your propensity to pick and choose which Scripture belongs in the cannon, how and more importantly, WHY do you believe the Titus passage? On what basis do you keep this passage and question the validity of others?

As I've said before, you keep the Scriptures that you 'like' and state that the ones that seemingly conflict with YOUR ideas about God are mis-translated. Please tell me how do you know that the Titus passage is not mistranslated?

Marcion lives!

By the same reasoning, Dave, do you apply every KJV translated English word exactly as we use it today? I don't question the word of God, I only question the way words and phrases are translated, which make them appear to say something that contradicts the nature of God.

All translations are filtered through the lenses of the translator.

Example: (II Sam 24:1) "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, 'Go number Isreal and Judah' ".

What's wrong with this picture? God is not unrighteous. Some would say, "Well if God is doing it, it is not unrighteous." Balogna!! Balderdash!!!

Unrighteousness is evil no matter who is doing it. If you disagree with this statement, then we have no further reason for discussion.

Now I don't believe God would be either righteous or just, if He had moved David to take a census of Israel, just so He could get angry send judgment on them.

That's the same argument that God hardened Pharoah's heart just so He could judge him. I just don't believe it, even though KJV says that He did.

That's the same argument about God closing the eyes of the people so they could not be healed. I have already posted on this thread how Jesus' own words, quoting from the Septuagint Version disproved the KJV.

It is a similar argument, that God made a man blind from birth, for forty years, just so He could heal him.

God is not unrighteous, and if KJV say's He is, then I just let God be true and every man a liar.

"He that doeth righteousness is righteous". By inverse reasoning, you could deduce that "He that doeth unrighteousness, is unrighteous." A better rendering of this might be: " He that is righteous, doeth righteousness.", and, by inversion: "He that is unrighteous, doeth unrighteousness". (B-LRV)

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Bro-Larry

By the same reasoning, Dave, do you apply every KJV translated English word exactly as we use it today? I don't question the word of God, I only question the way words and phrases are translated, which make them appear to say something that contradicts the nature of God.

All translations are filtered through the lenses of the translator.

Example: (II Sam 24:1) "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, 'Go number Isreal and Judah' ".

What's wrong with this picture? God is not unrighteous. Some would say, "Well if God is doing it, it is not unrighteous." Balogna!! Balderdash!!!

Unrighteousness is evil no matter who is doing it. If you disagree with this statement, then we have no further reason for discussion.

Now I don't believe God would be either righteous or just, if He had moved David to take a census of Israel, just so He could get angry send judgment on them.

That's the same argument that God hardened Pharoah's heart just so He could judge him. I just don't believe it, even though KJV says that He did.

That's the same argument about God closing the eyes of the people so they could not be healed. I have already posted on this thread how Jesus' own words, quoting from the Septuagint Version disproved the KJV.

It is a similar argument, that God made a man blind from birth, for forty years, just so He could heal him.

God is not unrighteous, and if KJV say's He is, then I just let God be true and every man a liar.

"He that doeth righteousness is righteous". By inverse reasoning, you could deduce that "He that doeth unrighteousness, is unrighteous." A better rendering of this might be: " He that is righteous, doeth righteousness.", and, by inversion: "He that is unrighteous, doeth unrighteousness". (B-LRV)

First of all I don't use just the KJV or that family of manuscripts that are used to make up the KJV. Have you studied textual transmission and criticism of the Bible? It appears that you haven't. I use all the major manuscripts available and favor the word-for-word translations over the paraphrases or the dynamic translations. There are VERY little differences between the families and you would know this if you take the time to study the subject. They all have the scriptures that you site with very little, if any, conflict among them that cannot be solved due to scribal error etc. There is more manuscript evidence for the Bible than for any other ancient writing. God has providentially preserved His word.

The other aspect are your presuppositions. You make statements that the scripture can't be correct because it makes God out to be evil. I submit that this is an arbitrary, inconsistent, and illogical position that you are unable to defend.

First of all, on what grounds can you call anything evil? What is your standard? Surly not your own ideas of right and wrong????! If there is no OBJECTIVE basis for your opinions you cannot justify them. Without the God of Scripture everything is left to the whims of man's own opinion. The fact that you cannot understand and reconcile some aspects of God's character should not be surprising as you and I are mere creations and He is THE Creator. We cannot even define what is righteous or unrighteous except He gives us the definition in His word. I can't understand how you can cut out portions of scripture with any warrant just because you cannot understand what God is saying. And it goes beyond that. You are recreating God in your own image according to your preconceived ideas which are arbitrary. You say "Now I don't believe God would be either righteous or just..." That's just it. You don't LIKE the God of Scripture. Same thing for Eve in the garden. She wished to be autonomous and no one can then nor today.

You say "God is not unrighteous. Some would say, "Well if God is doing it, it is not unrighteous." Balogna!! Balderdash!!!" God is the Definer of what is right and wrong and for you or I to make ethical judgments on Him is the height of arrogance. If we think we can make ultimate authority statements we are deceived.

Finally, you offer several/many portions of Scripture that you don't like and so they must be mistranslated. Of coarse you have no proof as such that would nullify or change the way Scripture views God's character. If you do I'd love the see them. Maybe the Jesus' Seminar can help you.....

May I suggest 2 books on the subject. "The Journey from Texts to Translations- The Origin and Development of the Bible" and "Textual Criticism of the Bible-It's History, Methods, and Results" both by Paul D. Wegner.

[Bro-Larry]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

First of all I don't use just the KJV or that family of manuscripts that are used to make up the KJV. Have you studied textual transmission and criticism of the Bible? It appears that you haven't. I use all the major manuscripts available and favor the word-for-word translations over the paraphrases or the dynamic translations. There are VERY little differences between the families and you would know this if you take the time to study the subject. They all have the scriptures that you site with very little, if any, conflict among them that cannot be solved due to scribal error etc. There is more manuscript evidence for the Bible than for any other ancient writing. God has providentially preserved His word.

The other aspect are your presuppositions. You make statements that the scripture can't be correct because it makes God out to be evil. I submit that this is an arbitrary, inconsistent, and illogical position that you are unable to defend.

What is your standard? Surly not your own ideas of right and wrong????! If there is no OBJECTIVE basis for your opinions you cannot justify them. Without the God of Scripture everything is left to the whims of man's own opinion. The fact that you cannot understand and reconcile some aspects of God's character should not be surprising as you and I are mere creations and He is THE Creator. We cannot even define what is righteous or unrighteous except He gives us the definition in His word. I can't understand how you can cut out portions of scripture with any warrant just because you cannot understand what God is saying. And it goes beyond that. You are recreating God in your own image according to your preconceived ideas which are arbitrary. You say "Now I don't believe God would be either righteous or just..." That's just it. You don't LIKE the God of Scripture. Same thing for Eve in the garden. She wished to be autonomous and no one can then nor today.

You say "God is not unrighteous. Some would say, "Well if God is doing it, it is not unrighteous." Balogna!! Balderdash!!!" God is the Definer of what is right and wrong and for you or I to make ethical judgments on Him is the height of arrogance. If we think we can make ultimate authority statements we are deceived.

Finally, you offer several/many portions of Scripture that you don't like and so they must be mistranslated. Of coarse you have no proof as such that would nullify or change the way Scripture views God's character. If you do I'd love the see them. Maybe the Jesus' Seminar can help you.....

May I suggest 2 books on the subject. "The Journey from Texts to Translations- The Origin and Development of the Bible" and "Textual Criticism of the Bible-It's History, Methods, and Results" both by Paul D. Wegner.

RDave,
Even with all your abstract intellectual sounding verbage, and all of your trying to make me look uneducated, you still didn't address the specific examples I offered? BTW: Your grammar isn't that good. You missused "site" and "coarse". "Surly"? (friendly verbal jab)

Why don't you address specifically some of the scriptures that you said I don't like?

Why does (II Sam 24:1) say: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, 'Go number Israel and Judah'." ? ; but then (I Chron 21:1) tells the same story, where it says plainly that "And satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." ? Is this proof enough for you?

Was it satan or God ? Which is true and which is false? Was it evil or good? Was it righteous or unrighteous? (note: as a matter of contempt, for him, I refuse to capitalize the word "satan." He doesn't have a proper name anymore, since (Isa 14:12). He's been brought to "nought". He's a zero.)

One doesn't have to be a scholar to understand the right path to follow. Isa 35:8 says that a wayfaring man, even if he is a fool, shall not err.

It doesn't take a real smart person to tell the difference between good and evil, and righteousness and unrighteousness.

Back to my original thread, God will not give His children, a stone for bread, (Lk 11:12), but the devil will. (Mt 4:5) That's how you can know the difference between good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness.

[ReformedDave]

Bro-Larry, I never have tried to use intellectual verbiage to make you look uneducated. My point is that you come to the table with your guns loaded and have your own 'take' on the matter and it isn't one of Scripture. Your force YOUR ideas on Scripture and set yourself up as the authority instead of the other way around. You've created a god in your own image.

You ask

Why does (II Sam 24:1) say: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, 'Go number Israel and Judah'." ? ; but then (I Chron 21:1) tells the same story, where it says plainly that "And satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." ? Is this proof enough for you?

Was it satan or God ? Which is true and which is false? Was it evil or good? Was it righteous or unrighteous? (note: as a matter of contempt, for him, I refuse to capitalize the word "satan." He doesn't have a proper name anymore, since (Isa 14:12). He's been brought to "nought". He's a zero.)

You commit the either-or fallacy. It was God acting justly and using satan to do His work. It does not have to be one OR the other. God has used evil men to do His will and these men were not forced in any way. They did what they wanted to do.

In the case of Joseph's brothers Joseph made the statement that what his brothers meant for evil God meant for good. God used the evilness of Joseph's brothers to keep them safe during a famine.

Did the brothers do evil? Yes. Did God do evil? No but He ordained it.

In Acts 2:22-23 Peter states- "22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. "

God had a definite plan for Jesus and used evil men to carry it out. Was what the men did in killing Jesus evil? You bet! Was what God did in sacrificing His Son evil???? Oh but I'm glad! So glad He did!

In Romans 9 Paul quotes the statement "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated". It was an obvious choice by God before these boys were born to choose one over the other and furthermore He hates one of the boys.

Paul anticipates your response and writes "14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

He has the right to give mercy on whomever He chooses. Both men were wicked, as we all are, and one received mercy, the other received justice.

Scripture states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Now which one was it? It was both! But it shows that God gets His way and that His ways are beyond our understanding.

To further make his case Paul writes "19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— "

Who are we to question God? We have no right to question how the potter chooses to use us....and we do what He has ordained for us....willingly.