The probelm with folks going to different churches is that who is responible for them.It's not fair to Pastors because they are unsure if they are responsible for church hoppers.When probelms arise and counseling needs to be done, are Pastors responsible to counsel church hoppers.
Also people that don't settle in a home church are held accountable to whom?
And where does their financial support go?
I have no substantive content to add to OSP's reply to Scott's post quoted above but I do want to toss in a comment involving the portion I BOLDED above.
In another paradigm there may be an understanding that pastors are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saints.
If one is to place pastors as having responsibility FOR saints, then they [the pastors] would by necessity, need a delegated MASTERY and the saints would then become SERVANTS to the officeholder of pastor. I do not believe anyone hear publically advocates that view of the scriptures. No one can be accountable for something or somebody that they do not full authority over (again, the which comes first perspective that enables a paradigm).
Those who have a gifting/calling in the realm of God's spirit have a responsibility to GIVE ACCOUNT for how they administer that which has been given to them. I submit that "what has been given to them" is a gifting not a saint or sheep.
They have been given a gifting/calling for which they must give account; they have not been given another SOUL that they are now held responsible for.
We can rest from weariness (of our own works) and be refreshed in this calling, because we are only accountable for our own relationship with a personal, loving God. Undoubtedly, that relationship will take us into service to others, but our responsibility is to the SERVICE not the OTHERS.
Folks who believe God has given them sheep are excessively prone to believing that they have ownership priviledge and responsibility; I submit BOTH are false.
Again, we each have a responsibility, and will give account, to our calling and election within the body of God's anointing, but no member of the body of Christ is responsible to give account for the lifestyle and choices made by another member of God's church.
Each of us, as bondservants in Christ, will answer to our own master.
Who is your master?
Did your master delegate another master between you and him? If you believe he did, why did he need to do so?
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
so are you willing to step up and create this new methodology you speak of or are you asking others to change their approach?
Being just a saint I'm not encouraged to step up and create the methodology. It seems in order not to be called a wandering star or other things liek that I have to ask others to change their methodolgy?
Maybe it's a bottom up rather than top down change? But then is that against God's model of authority?
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
I have no substantive content to add to OSP's reply to Scott's post quoted above but I do want to toss in a comment involving the portion I BOLDED above.
In another paradigm there may be an understanding that pastors are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saints.
If one is to place pastors as having responsibility FOR saints, then they [the pastors] would by necessity, need a delegated MASTERY and the saints would then become SERVANTS to the officeholder of pastor. I do not believe anyone hear publically advocates that view of the scriptures. No one can be accountable for something or somebody that they do not full authority over (again, the which comes first perspective that enables a paradigm).
Those who have a gifting/calling in the realm of God's spirit have a responsibility to GIVE ACCOUNT for how they administer that which has been given to them. I submit that "what has been given to them" is a gifting not a saint or sheep.
They have been given a gifting/calling for which they must give account; they have not been given another SOUL that they are now held responsible for.
We can rest from weariness (of our own works) and be refreshed in this calling, because we are only accountable for our own relationship with a personal, loving God. Undoubtedly, that relationship will take us into service to others, but our responsibility is to the SERVICE not the OTHERS.
Folks who believe God has given them sheep are excessively prone to believing that they have ownership priviledge and responsibility; I submit BOTH are false.
Again, we each have a responsibility, and will give account, to our calling and election within the body of God's anointing, but no member of the body of Christ is responsible to give account for the lifestyle and choices made by another member of God's church.
Each of us, as bondservants in Christ, will answer to our own master.
Who is your master?
Did your master delegate another master between you and him? If you believe he did, why did he need to do so?
Good post.
I think that is the prevalent point of view here and though some may think they do not think that way I think you can read in their answers that on some level they do believe that.
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
so are you willing to step up and create this new methodology you speak of or are you asking others to change their approach?
I know I am not the one being asked...but as one who contributes in these type of discussions I offer my current perspective to the question you pose.
God is building his church, his dwellingplace, his own abode. Men who are out there presuming to help God build his own house will stand alongside David. A man who's heart was after God WAS NOT ABLE to build God a house.
Each of us must decide if we are trying to BUILD or trying to FIND the house of God.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
Being just a saint I'm not encouraged to step up and create the methodology. It seems in order not to be called a wandering star or other things liek that I have to ask others to change their methodolgy?
Maybe it's a bottom up rather than top down change? But then is that against God's model of authority?
clearly you have an issue.
the reality is, when you are talking about groups like the UPCI,ALJC,AMF and others, you are talking about people that have spent lifetimes doing what they believe to be the will of God (and I agree with them that it is).
They have worked diligently and patiently by generation in some cases, to build a church and organizations that work collectivly on the format that they had, and one that fits within an understanding of scripture.
Now you have decided there are issues with it. You may be right! Asking these men to make such fundamental changes, IMOH isnt right.
There are folk out there doing this multiple elder stuff now. so if they are right, eventually they will over take the rest of us. I wish them well.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I have no substantive content to add to OSP's reply to Scott's post quoted above but I do want to toss in a comment involving the portion I BOLDED above.
In another paradigm there may be an understanding that pastors are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saints.
If one is to place pastors as having responsibility FOR saints, then they [the pastors] would by necessity, need a delegated MASTERY and the saints would then become SERVANTS to the officeholder of pastor. I do not believe anyone hear publically advocates that view of the scriptures. No one can be accountable for something or somebody that they do not full authority over (again, the which comes first perspective that enables a paradigm).
Those who have a gifting/calling in the realm of God's spirit have a responsibility to GIVE ACCOUNT for how they administer that which has been given to them. I submit that "what has been given to them" is a gifting not a saint or sheep.
They have been given a gifting/calling for which they must give account; they have not been given another SOUL that they are now held responsible for.
We can rest from weariness (of our own works) and be refreshed in this calling, because we are only accountable for our own relationship with a personal, loving God. Undoubtedly, that relationship will take us into service to others, but our responsibility is to the SERVICE not the OTHERS.
Folks who believe God has given them sheep are excessively prone to believing that they have ownership priviledge and responsibility; I submit BOTH are false.
Again, we each have a responsibility, and will give account, to our calling and election within the body of God's anointing, but no member of the body of Christ is responsible to give account for the lifestyle and choices made by another member of God's church.
Each of us, as bondservants in Christ, will answer to our own master.
Who is your master?
Did your master delegate another master between you and him? If you believe he did, why did he need to do so?
I think this is VERY WRONG! Pastors most certrianly ARE responsible for those under them and it is the people under them that are responsible for submitting to their authority!
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Show me in the word of God exactly WHERE it says that because God said to "obey those that hath the rule over you", that they are somehow "masters" of a person. Or that they somehow "own" them. It DOES say that they must give an account...so that speakes volumes! It is not "ownership"....but ACCOUNTABILITY that they are responsible for!
I submit that it is not about being a slave or master, but a servant of Christ who submits to the authority of the person (or persons) over them and those in charge such as a pastor and leadership are responsible for the people or flock under their authority. Also, it is the pastors responsibility to make sure that those under their authority are ready for heaven.
We currently have an evanglist at our church. He told our church the other night, however,that there is a pastor at a church he bases himself out of...that if that pastor were to call him and say he needed him....he respects him so much that he would drop the revival he is in and go to him! And this is an evangilist talking!
It seems that a lot of statements made here, are from people who somehow want to find a way to do things differently because they believe that the current way of doing things is wrong. Even though a lot of what is being said about faithfulness, is what God's word backs up.
If you really want to find a way to do things your own way....why would you want to belong to any form of christianityat all? After all, the bible says we are servants to someone...either the Devil or Christ...
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
How then can you say you are wanting to serve God, if you cannot even submit to an authority figure or even stay rooted and grounded in one church if you are a saint and not in the five fold ministry? I am sorry, but I see a lot of people making excuses for what they believe, but to me they have not given credible evidence as to WHY they should not be grounded in one church if they are a saint. But the word of God DOES give reason's why you should be accountable to one pastor.
And as far as "not being a plant" well the word of God says.... Psalm 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Now how exactly are you going to bring forth fruit in due season, if you are CONSTANTLY being uprooted? Sorry, but to me this is very basic. If you constantly uproot a tree or plant....it can never find the roots it needs to grow. Thus, it can never bear the fruit it is supposed to in it's due season.
Again it all goes back to being grounded and having some kind of root system that you can draw strength from in times that you need strength. This is what a body of believers provides. It would take an incredibly strong christian to just go it alone and jump from church to church, being accountable to no one but God and never having any roots.
Show me a kid who goes from school to school constantly and I will show you a kid who really has no grasp on the subjects he is currently studying and probably one that has no accountability to any one teacher.
So it could mean in some cases, he can become a troublemaker....because if he get's into trouble at one school, hey,he is not going to be there long so who cares? He just goes to another school where he can repeat the process over and over. This is also sometimes the attitude of a lot of saints that just go from church to church....they have no real accountability...so it does not matter if what they do or say hurts the church they go to. They can just go somewhere else, but somebody has to pick up the pieces of the mess they leave behind.
There is more to being accountable to a body of believers than just "falling in line" or "being a slave" , you also develop relationships with that body and if you have the RIGHT relationship.....you don't WANT to go anyplace else! It all goes back to your perception....do you view yourself a "slave" because you have a pastor and those you are accountable to? If you do, then you have the wrong perception....or are in a very abusive church situation that you need to get out of anyway.
But if you have the right relationship, you want to see your church grow and the peoiple you have formed relationships with, healthy !
Hello! I am new here, and just thought I would throw my pennies out there for what it is worth.
I will first explain that I am a very independent spirit, and one who continually questions by what authority decisions are made, and where is the scripture to show me? Where is the biblical standard, the biblical example? (Something I was taught in my first church.) Please understand, I am not rebellious nor one who causes strife....just one who asks alot of questions.
When I got "in church" many years ago, I lived in Germany, and we had a small little group who fellowshipped and worshipped together. That is where I was saved. In that area, there was a local German church. There was a lady I knew who was a single woman, who worked very long hours and strange hours (she was in the medical field) and sometimes she couldn't get to services in "her church" and since we held our meetings at unusual times (Tues. evening and Sunday afternoon) she would be able to make ours instead. We did not see her as intruding, neither did "her church" see her as hopping or being unfaithful.
She was our fellow sister, and part of THE CHURCH.
It is my opinion that there is only ONE church. There may be lots of buildings, and lots of congregations, but if they all teach and believe the truth they are just all chapters of the SAME church.
Where we live now, there are quite a UPC churches, some PAW churches and some others as well. There is an elderly man who goes around to just about every one of the UPC churches. He has family members in almost all of them. So he is visiting all of the "chapters" and seeing his earthly AND spiritual family at the same time. No one has a problem with it.
On the other hand, several years ago, we had moved to another area. We lived a good long ways from the assembly that I regularly attend. I knew that because of my husband's work, that I was going to have trouble making it all the way to my regular church on Wednesday evenings, so (thinking of my sister in Germany) I figured I could go to the nearby UPC church on the evenings that I wouldn't be able to make it to the next county in time for service. It meant visiting a local assembly, or not making it at all.
Much to my shock (me thinking we were all of the SAME church) I was called out from the pulpit and told I couldn't come to that church without my pastor's permission, and that I had to go to one or the other!
I was very saddened by this, and ended up missing alot of church because of it.
Honestly, I think it is more about Pastor's fear of losing control. Of course, I will add that I do not believe in the seperation of so called ministry and laity. I think we are all equal believers in the body.
I would have to agree with you. I do believe that there are different callings for different people, but that we are ALL saints.
One sits under elders for a number of years until you are a mature Christian. While you are sitting under those elders (5 fold ministry) you are taught your giftings and your ministry within the church.
Then you are given leave to go and minister in other places/assemblies where you are needed. You could go to a growing assembly, start your own, visit others depending where God leads.
I see in the original assembly as a nucleus of elders, babes and those still learning so you don't see people sitting on a pew for 40 years but going out and sowing into other places. You could grow into one of the elders in your original assembly or be used in another capacity in others.
Every saint has a ministry and it may not be exclusively needed in your local assembly. Sometimes just being there and worshipping with a group of people who need encouragement is a ministry. For example, a small assembly who has only a dozen people when you come from one that has 200 or more.
My theory is that the water is not moving is going to grow stagnant. We have little pools of swamp water where we should have large rivers flowing around to give encouragement and life to others.
It seems a little fearful to me to hold back the flow if we don't have any real good reasons not to.
My question to someone who is considering this activity (going to varied churches in the same area) is: What would the outlet of your ministry and calling be? Most Christians utilize the church or parachurch ministry to follow God's call on their life...
It's ALL good!!!
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