Are we are under the commands of the first 5 books

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

There is no possible way for it to not have impact. Does your childhood not effect your adult life? God doesnt erase our memories when he calls, instead he uses our life experiences. Some things we must be delivered from and somethings become a strength to us.

Childhood experiences do not dictate theology. They may shape us, and we can't deny our memories, such as we have of them, but Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not merely a memoir of his life. His theology therefore, is God-ordained, God-derived, and not from whatever his past life as a Jew amounted to. Hence why he called that past life "dung". He threw it ALL AWAY so that he might attain to the excellency of the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus.

You keep saying the word Torah, but my English bible doesnt use the term Torah. Instead, Paul references it as simply the law.

The Greek term commonly translated as "law" is nomos, and in context, refers to the Torah, that is, the Law of Moses, or the Pentateuch. So, when John writes "sin is the transgression of the law", he is referring to the Torah/Law of Moses/Pentateuch.

When Paul writes in Hebrews, and quotes two different times from the Prophet Jeremiah, "I will write my laws on their heart", he is referring to the Torah/Law of Moses/Pentateuch. How do we know? Because the Hebrew word for Law in Jeremiah 31:33 is torah.

These facts are fundamental to the discussion we are having, and yet, you don't seem to know them, questioning my use of "Torah"? That level of ignorance speaks volumes.

I am not debating there is no principle or precedent contained in the law.

But you are, even when you say you are not. You have repeatedly cited certain commands of the law as good principles to follow. But they are not mere principles. They are LAWS. They are COMMANDS. It really doesn't help your case to call them principles, or etc.

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law leads us to Christ. The moral teachings still have applications, but not according to the letter. Those laws have been fulfilled and to say otherwise is to make the cross in vain.

First, I don't think you know what the phrase "letter of the law" means.

Second, again, you can't have it both ways. If a believer in Christ, by obeying any law of the Torah, makes the cross in vain, then there are not legitimate applications in the life of the New Covenant believer, without risk to delegitimatizing the cross.

Remember, he that keepeth not the whole law is guilty of all? You've insisted and persisted in this point multiple times, now. So, there is no point in keeping only a couple laws, here and there, because you think there is some benefit to the believer, while neglecting the rest. Why you cannot see the logical outcome of your own argument is strange at best, patently blind at worst.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Who here has ever argued that one's righteousness comes by the law? No one has denounced faithful obedience to God's Christ and the Gospel as the means whereby one is saved and made right with the Father.

If that's what you think the argument has been this whole time, no wonder you can't see what Esaias, Amanah, and I, have been saying.

Yes, he quotes often from the OT as a reference to establish NT doctrine. He does not insist the NT church go back and learn the law in order to know how to be Christian. The law was righteous, yet it was just shadow of what was to come (Jesus).

He doesn't merely quote from the OT as a reference. He quotes from the OT to establish proper ECCLESIASTICAL PRAXIS upon all believers everywhere for all time. Clearly his quotations of the law are designed to command believers in their behavior. So, take something Simon Peter wrote:

1 Peter 1:16 (ESV),

16 Since it is written, "You shall be holy for I am holy."

Where is it written?

Leviticus 11:44-45 (ESV),

44 For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. 45 For I am the Lord who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.”

What then, is Simon Peter's conclusion?

1 Peter 1:15 (ESV),

15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct...

Simon Peter instructs all of us to be holy in all of our conduct, BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH, in Leviticus. He places an injunction, a command (See and consider Acts 1:2 here) upon his readers based, not on a principle, or merely a precedent, but upon a DIVINE COMMAND FROM YHWH, upon the New Covenant believer.

Anyone who does not regard this as BIBLICAL FACT is in their flesh, as far as I am concerned.

I don’t want it both ways and I have made up my mind. I don’t seek the righteousness that comes from the law, but from Jesus Christ.

You may only want it to be one way, but your argument logically concludes in having it both ways. And, just in case it needs to be said, submitting yourself to the commands of the law doesn't generate righteousness in you. Your faith in Christ imparts righteousness to you. But to think you can actively transgress the commands of God and think that that doesn't have any impact on your life in Christ is foolishness.

2 Corinthians 3:6-7
6......Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7......But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

I will stick with what is plainly stated by scripture.

If only you would.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Commentary is not the same as Gods word. Just because some agree on a view doesnt make it true. The context of those passages where not the same. To add, the law required for the guilty to be put to death. If we are under the law then do what the law says.

You are, of course, free to believe what you want about 1 Corinthians 5:13, even if you choose to be wrong.

As far as the context of the law recommending the death penalty, do you not know or understand what ex-communication is? It is an eternal death sentence upon the ex-communicated.

So, then, next time you find out you have an unrepentant fornicator in your church, make sure you DON'T obey the Torah on what to do about it.

There was a large number of Jews all throughout the church. There is no doubt that much of the readers where Jews. Matter of fact the synagogues where some of the apostles target places to go preach the gospel. Gentiles where not being taught to keep the feast of Passover.

And that helps the Gentile believers how?

I have not said anywhere we can behave anyway we please.

Well, of course not. And yet, take away the Law of God, and where does that leave anyone? Every man to his tents, O Israel?

The problem here is that you believe we cannot have righteouness without the law. That is contrary to the apostles doctrine.

I don't believe that. You've assumed that. Shame, shame.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

It was the Holy Spirit of God that carried the prophets, including Moses, along, to write the things they wrote.

And one thing, among many other things, that the Holy Spirit of God led Moses to write is as follows:

Exodus 12:14 (ESV),

“This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.

A statute FOREVER, you say?

Exodus 31:16-18 (ESV),

16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Huh? There's that word FOREVER again. I wonder what the Holy Spirit of God was trying to convey here? According to your view, FOREVER only means until Jesus died 2,000 years ago, not actually FOREVER, FOR ALL TIME, INTO ETERNITY, EVERLASTINGLY, etc.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The plainly written word

Cherry picking texts out of the context isn't a good move, Brother.

Read the whole story more carefully.

Acts 15:1-5 (ESV),

1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

The Pharisee party in the church were teaching that Gentiles could NOT BE SAVED, unless they were first circumcised, as the standard token of proof and inclusion into the Covenant at Sinai.

Acts 15:6-11 (ESV),

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

Simon Peter's words at the end here tell the tale. The Pharisee party were insisting that the salvation of Jew and Gentile was dependent upon the Law, particularly their interpretation of the Law, not upon Grace. And that was the yoke the Jews in that arena were not able to bear: attempting to be saved in the eyes of God according to the Pharisee's Interpretation of the Law, not according to Grace.

Additionally, you have to remember who this Pharisee party was comprised of, namely, and obviously, Pharisees. Jesus spoke of the kind of burdens the Pharisees used to like to place on people:

Matthew 23:1-4 (ESV),

1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.

Moreover, the Pharisees practiced something called the Tradition of the Elders, an Oral Law of Moses, allegedly handed down from Moses to Joshua, and from Joshua, to the 70 elders, and from the 70 elders, to the Prophets, and from the Prophets to the Pharisees.

The idea is preserved in the Talmud, in Pirke Avot:

Moses received the Torah at Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua, Joshua to the elders, and the elders to the prophets, and the prophets to the Men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be patient in [the administration of] justice, raise many disciples and make a fence round the Torah.

See: https://www.sefaria.org/Pirkei_Avot....h=all&lang2=en

The "fence around the Torah" is all the traditions of men that Jesus upbraided the Pharisees for. That is the yoke Simon Peter likely spoke of, IN CONTEXT.