New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentance

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I want you to answer this one question by stating one word.... either "Jesus" or "Man"....

Is the command to water baptize, and be water baptized, from Jesus or man?

(Matthew 28:19 KJV)
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(Mark 16:16-17 KJV)
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

(John 3:5 KJV)
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus. Ok, what is your point.

[mizpeh]

- Water Baptism.) Theologically speaking, then, forgiveness and remission are equivalent terms, and forgiveness (or remission) comes with the combination of repentance and water baptism. We should not separate the two experiences.
For purposes of study only, perhaps we can make the following distinction: at repentance, God destroys sin's present dominion in a person's life, and He removes the barrier preventing a personal relationship with Him. At water baptism, God removes the legal record of sin and erases the penalty for that sin, namely death. God deals with the present consequences of sin at repentance and with the future consequences of sin at water baptism. Both are necessary for forgiveness

quoted from the David Bernard

I agree with DB that you will not have forgiveness of sins in baptism without first having faith in Christ and repentance.

I would also agree with DB's statement "God destroys sin's present dominion in a person's life, and He removes the barrier preventing a personal relationship with Him".

I believe there is more than just "God removes the legal record of sin and erases the penalty for that sin, namely death." and " God deals.....with the future consequences of sin at water baptism" when we are baptized in Jesus name. There is a circumcision made by the Spirit at baptism. It is a literal removing of the body of sins from our hearts by the application of the blood of Christ or in other Biblical terms, a washing, a blotting out, which constitutes divine forgiveness.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

If that is so why were men's sins not remitted in the OT??? They were forgiven. Heb.9 & 10 declares sins were NOT taken away. John declared "the Lamb that TAKETH away the sin of the world." Jn.1:29
ONLY the shedding of blood remits sins. Heb. 9:22
Remission of sins is in His blood which was shed for many. Mt. 26:28
I realize both forgiveness and remission comes from the same Greek word and both are purchased by His blood yet NOT the same in functions and experience.
ONLY in baptism in Jesus Name are the sins of the penitent remitted.

My friend, In the old testament there were types and shadows of the blood of Jesus that put off sins until Jesus blood was given.

Heb.8
[1] Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[2] A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[3] For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[4] For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:[5] Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.



Heb.10
[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Remission is forgiveness.

I don't have time to post the verses until tonight. So I'll have to get back with you later. Basically, when our sins are forgiven/remitted is when the blood of Christ is applied. No blood, no forgiveness.

Dan, I can only stay for a few minutes. I'll be back on and off today and then perhaps have more time tonight to hash this out with you.

Which begs the question....when is the blood applied?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Why is the blood applied at a certain time? I thought the blood was applied at Calvary. Christ died for the sins of the world. I think we in Pentecost have tried so hard to make the bible fit our doctrine that we end up in these strange areas where it takes a huge breakthrough just to understand the basics of the gospel.

Now, we have people using very orthodox teaching to explain the exact opposite of what historical Christianity taught for hundreds of years.

The blood was shed at Calvary.

If the blood was applied at the cross to my heart (this is where the washing takes place), then I was forgiven before I ever believed, repented, and was baptized.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Which begs the question....when is the blood applied?

In the waters of baptism by the Spirit of God to our hearts.

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works (sins) to serve the living God?

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Have you ever met anyone who repented of their sins that didn't want the Holy Spirit or Water Baptism. These are easy works to follow. I mean, why not pick some hard ones like loving your brother as yourself.

Repentance some times is not an easy work for some.Did you say work ? Oh well,some people are devil possessed and need devils cast out.Repent means to stop sinning.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=Joelel;583219]My friend, In the old testament there were types and shadows of the blood of Jesus that put off sins until Jesus blood was given.






And my friend there are also Types and shadows in the Old testament that show while the blood was applied in Egypt, protecting them from the death angel, it was the WATER that saved them OUT of Egypt. The blood applied in Noahs day since the days of Abel in sacrifice but the water saving his family.
It always keeps coming back to a combined Blood Water Spirit typology, and one that for whatever reason causes some people a great deal of consternation in trying to divide up. These three agree in ONE the word says, so I guess we water blood and spirit people are "ONE steppers" after all!

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro. David K. Bernard wrote about how Justification, Regeneration, Adoption, and Sanctification all work together for the salvation of the individual in his book, The New Birth. I believe it's chapter 13.

Amen

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Aquila

An old timer once told me that at repentance God forgives the sins one has committed but at water baptism one's "sin nature" is pardoned. He believed there are two things at issue...deeds done and fallen nature. Don't know if that's relevant though.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe my sins were forgiven at repentance. I received the Holy Ghost shortly after. I was later water baptized in Jesus name.

Had I not received the Holy Ghost I wouldn't have experienced regeneration, my old man would still be in full control and I'd be lost. If I didn't obey and be water baptized I wouldn't have been adopted into the family and I would be lost in rebellion.

I like how these posts are put together. It's what I also believe for myself.