Islam: A Religion of Lies...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Or maybe these?

[Evang.Benincasa]

[Evang.Benincasa]

[Evang.Benincasa]

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I did not know the last source was not respectable. Honestly it seems like hadith and sharia are like talmud and halakha, or Tradition and Canon among catholic/orthodox. It seems difficult to get an authoritative opinion. I did not know there were lots of Muslims who follow Koran only (karaite muslims? lol).

According wikipedia, the penalty for a conviction of adultery in Saudi Arabia is death by stoning. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capit...rabia#Adultery

The hadith I quoted did not mention any Jews. From I can tell the sharia penalty for adultery is death. So I'm not understanding the insistence on your part that it is not.

I did not insist anything and do not wish to give the impression that your source (other than that nutjob Imam though I sort of like his "we don't have to share the road" ideas LOL) is not a valid source that is used.

I pointed out that the Quran addresses adultery, specifies a penalty, and does not list execution as the penalty.

The Hadith are a collection of stories compiled from actions or decisions during the life of Mohammed. The story is listed, and the source, and usually a second supporting source. I did not mean to imply that your source was inaccurate or that stoning was not ordered for adultery at that time or that the Hadith, one of which you posted, is questionable.

A friendly link to the translations. They (all of the Hadith) are all there and neatly classified by type of crime. Hopefully you can stomach the shame that accompanies the use of a USC Trojan site - I believe I wouldn't tell anyone.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...im/017-smt.php

I believe that the original source of this penalty can be traced to this Hadith.

'Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.

Following this, examples of this penalty can be traced to these Hadiths.

This is one:

Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him, He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times, and as he testified four times against his own self, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad? He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him.

This is another:

Jabir b. Samura reported: As he was being brought to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) I saw Ma'iz b. Malik-a short-statured person with strong sinews, having no cloak around him. He bore witness against his own self four times that he had committed adultery, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Perhaps (you kissed her or embraced her). He said: No. by God, one deviating (from the path of virtue) has committed adultery. He then got him stoned (to death),

This is another:

Abu Sa'id reported that a person belonging to the clan of Aslam, who was called Ma, iz b. Malik, came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: I have committed immorality (adultery), so inflict punishment upon me. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) turned him away again and again. He then asked his people (about the state of his mind). They said: We do not know of any ailment of his except that he has committed something about which he thinks that he would not be able to relieve himself of its burden but with the Hadd being imposed upon him. He (Ma'iz) came back to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he commanded us to stone him.

Here is another:


He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

And another:

Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life. I will decide between you according to the Book of Allah. The slave-girl and the goats should be given back, and your son is to be punished with one hundred lashes and exile for one year. And, O Unais (b. Zuhaq al-Aslami), go to this woman in the morning, and if she makes a confession, then stone her. He (the narrator) said: He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death.

And the ONLY reference to a BOOK is found in this one:

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that a Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) who had committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for one who commits adultery? They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round (the city). He said: Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning, the person who was reading placed his hand on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. Abdullah b. Salim who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted it and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about both of them and they were stoned. Abdullah b. 'Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body.

So it is very clear where the death penalty laws were derived from and what constitutes evidence.

Direct confession, multiple times. Once, twice is not enough.
Pregnancy (married, but not pregnant by husband)
Multiple witnesses, who must SEE the actual act

So laws were set up along the lines of the Hadith. Including in Saudi Arabia.

Your same wiki source:

In order for an individual to be convicted in a Saudi sharia court of adultery, he/she must confess to the act three times in front of the court, or four males or eight females who witnessed the sexual penetration must testify in front of the court.[23] The burden of proof is on the accuser. The execution method for adultery for men and women is stoning.[24] Sandra Mackey, author of The Saudis: Inside the Desert Kingdom, stated in 1987 that in Saudi Arabia, "unlike the tribal rights of a father to put to death a daughter who has violated her chastity, death sentences under Qur'anic law [for adultery] are extremely rare."[25] Mackey explained that "[c]harges of adultery are never made lightly. Since the penalty is so severe, women are protected from unfounded accusations of sexual misconduct."[25] During a human rights dialog with European jurists that took place several years before 1987, a Saudi delegate acknowledged that it is difficult to have a person convicted of adultery.[25] According to Mackey, in a 20-year period ending in 1987, one woman "is acknowledged to" have been executed by stoning for adultery

Here is where the doubt is introduced:

Abu Ishaq Shaibani said: I asked 'Abdullah b. Abu Aufi if Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded (the punishment) of stoning (to death). He said: Yes. I said: After Sura al-Nur was revealed or before that? He said: I do not know.

[Noor 24:1] This is a surah which We have sent down and decreed its commands, and in which We have sent down clear verses, in order that you may ponder.

[Noor 24:2] The adulteress and the adulterer - punish each one of them with a hundred lashes; and may you not have pity on them in the religion to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day; and a group of believers must witness their punishment.

[Noor 24:3] The adulterer shall not marry except an adulteress or a polytheist woman, and none shall marry an adulteress except an adulterer or a polytheist; and this is forbidden for the believers.

[Noor 24:4] And those who accuse chaste women and do not bring four witnesses to testify - punish them with eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony; and it is they who are the wicked.

[Noor 24:5] Except those who repent after this and reform themselves; so indeed Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[Noor 24:6] And those who accuse their wives and do not have witnesses except their own statements – for such the testimony is that he bear the testimony four times by the name of Allah that he is truthful.

[Noor 24:7] And the fifth time, that the curse of Allah be upon him if he is a liar.

[Noor 24:8] And the punishment shall be averted from the woman if she bears the testimony four times by the name of Allah, that the man is a liar.

[Noor 24:9] And the fifth time, that the wrath of Allah be upon her if the man is truthful.

[Noor 24:10] And were it not for Allah’s munificence and His mercy upon you and that Allah is the Acceptor of Repentance, the Wise – He would then have unveiled you.

This is the punishment for adultery as outlined in the Quran. It is the only punishment. As noted in earlier post, the burden of proof is set so high as to approach the impossible. My original teachers, who were from Asia, were not necessarily in total agreement with the teachers in this part of the world as their fundamental and primary philosophy is Quran, Hadith, Consensus in that order. I believe that overall you will find that the Muslim world is split ~50/50 in this matter.

When asked, I deferred to the Quran. (I often get accused of not answering even when I answer directly)

[Esaias]

Hmm... so if I understand correctly, it kind of depends on who you ask? That is, there are different schools of thought which give different weights to Koran, Hadith, and consensus? How then is shariah determined? Is it pretty much a local thing (like slightly different halacha for different locations)?

I am now using adultery merely as a medium with which to probe the larger question: how does one know what course to follow? Koran says lashing, hadith indicates stoning. If you follow Koran are you not ignoring hadith? And if you follow hadith are you not going beyond Koran?

How is this reconciled? (Again, adultery is only being used as an example).

[Walks_in_islam]

Gx

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

That's what I was waiting to see...how Walks can explain this. Apparently, Saudi Arabia (the largest Muslim country supporting Sharia Law), where he claims he lives, doesn't agree.

Your "accuracy" problems continue. Saudi Arabia does not even approach your "largest Muslim country" statement. There are claims and then other claims, but they can be easily checked. If i did not live where I claimed then it would be hard to provide little details like for instance if you consult google maps (is this another link you wont open because of the e-spank you get when you do) then you could confirm there is one highway south from Jubail. If you drive south, you pass a town called qatif, its right past the airport exit. If you follow that highway it ends in dhahran. Just before it ends you can exit and continue south. Three exits after that is the Dhahran Mall, same exit as KFUPM university. Left is the mall, right is the Uni. On that corner, after you exit and turn right, is the US consulate on the left.
If you keep going you eventually hit thr Bahrain Causeway. Cost of the toll is 2 BD
Or 20 SAR. Summary: i live here. Let me know if you need any other cool little details
You and your silly evangelie friend are two peas in a pod. LOL. Your little snide comments dont even make a scratch. Anything else? Lol

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Hmm... so if I understand correctly, it kind of depends on who you ask? That is, there are different schools of thought which give different weights to Koran, Hadith, and consensus? How then is shariah determined? Is it pretty much a local thing (like slightly different halacha for different locations)?

I am now using adultery merely as a medium with which to probe the larger question: how does one know what course to follow? Koran says lashing, hadith indicates stoning. If you follow Koran are you not ignoring hadith? And if you follow hadith are you not going beyond Koran?

How is this reconciled? (Again, adultery is only being used as an example).

Differs by country for the most part. There are cases within same countries where punishment is one or the other implying at least That even in countries with this as established law on the books there is disagreement. A comparison is capital murder or special circumstance murder in the US. Some states it will earn you execution, some just prison. Note: Comparison is the punishment differences, not the crime.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

How are they my cohorts? lol...nor are they my friends. They are Muslims in a debate room

BTW they may be unlearned but if so there are a LOT of Unlearned Muslims...what about the Hadiths?

Lol we seem to have a couple things in common. With that said i'm not even going to ask you what you are doing on a site debating Muslims. Fun aint it. Unlearned may not be exactly the right term. We should, all of us, know where teachings come from and what the basis for them is, differences are, basis for differences, what our stand is, why, and be able to articulate it. My view is if we do not know, then we are unlearned.

[Esaias]

I just read the first five or six or so pages of this thread.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many Christians seem ashamed of and offended at the One they claim as Lord and Saviour. The falling over oneself to recast God's holy Word into something acceptable to "(post)modern sensibilities."

The original post concerned Koranic allowance for telling untruths under certain circumstances.

Hebrew midwives and Rahab the harlot ought to put that to rest. (If only more Christians would study the Bible... or at least read Rushdoony lol.)