Why are UPC church's so sectarian?

[chseeads]

Originally Posted by Sam

Tipton? That's where the late Rev. L.R. Ooton lived. But, I guess that's before your time (or before the time of most on this forum). I don't know when he died but when I saw him in the nineteen seventies he was an old man.

I've heard the name, but that's all I know. lol

[Sam]

According to Map Quest the church in Tipton, IN is 144.82 miles and 2 hours, 24 minutes from my house. It doesn't look like I'll be trying to drive there and back on a Friday night.

L.R. Ooton was an old timer. I'm not sure when he was born or when he died. He was preaching in 1915, maybe earlier. I saw him in the nineteen seventies and he was an old man then. In 1941 he was part of a group that left the PAJC and established an organization called the AMA (Apostolic Ministerial Alliance). At one time it had about 1000 members according to the Fudge book (page 62). I used to preach at a church in Dayton, OH where Bro. William Coleman pastored. He was with the AMA and also with the ALJC. In the nineteen seventies when I saw Eld. L.R. Ooton there, the AMA had only a few churches. I'm not sure how large they are now. Eld. Epley said he thought they had some churches in Illinois.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Sam

According to Map Quest the church in Tipton, IN is 144.82 miles and 2 hours, 24 minutes from my house. It doesn't look like I'll be trying to drive there and back on a Friday night.

L.R. Ooton was an old timer. I'm not sure when he was born or when he died. He was preaching in 1915, maybe earlier. I saw him in the nineteen seventies and he was an old man then. In 1941 he was part of a group that left the PAJC and established an organization called the AMA (Apostolic Ministerial Alliance). At one time it had about 1000 members according to the Fudge book (page 62). I used to preach at a church in Dayton, OH where Bro. William Coleman pastored. He was with the AMA and also with the ALJC. In the nineteen seventies when I saw Eld. L.R. Ooton there, the AMA had only a few churches. I'm not sure how large they are now. Eld. Epley said he thought they had some churches in Illinois.

The last time I heard there were still a few in Central Illinois?

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

If you put a dirty sock in a box of clean socks which will affect which? A bad apple in with good apple? Anyone ever read Haggai 2:11-13? The power of the unclean?

There is no questioning that an unclean sock's odor will affect the clean sock, and a bad apple will definitely affect a good apple. However, I would say this analogy breaks down somewhat when you try to apply it in a spiritual context.

Jesus taught in Matthew 15:18-20, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."


A truly clean heart will not be contaminated by coming in contact with sin that is without. This is why Jesus had no problem eating with Publicans and sinners. What is taught in Haggai belongs to another time under a different covenant and relationship with God than what we now enjoy.

We are the salt, so we are the ones affecting others. We are the light so we are the ones dispelling the darkness.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Consapostolic1

Fear of influence from those of lesser standards.

Fear of billions of years in a literal fiery, the man made doctrine of "endless torment"?

The scripture actually warns against only loving those who loves one's self.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You know that's a real problem. When I was preaching I was really into preaching. I studied many hours during the week to prepare for less than an hour in the pulpit every Sunday. After a few years I found that I represented a threat to the senior pastor and his wife. I had looked up to them for so long that it really blew me away that I threatened them.

In time I began to see that the older preacher was no longer as motivated to prepare for his messages. He had lost the desire that he once had for "book learning." My enthusiam probably only made him feel worse. In time, when even his own family was clamoring for me to preach more they simply pulled the rug out. They were complacent and satisfied with themselves.

I think that's a large part our problem in the UPC - we're satisfied that we possess "all truth" and that anything else is just going to muddy the water for us. So all you young UPC preachers out there, learn from my mistakes. Put away your studies. Put down the Bible. Pick up some tapes of some "old timers" and simply mimic what you hear. Don't try to glean anything for yourself. Your soul will die from the boredom. But you won't rock anybody's boat either.

Some of the problem is that it is "somebody's boat", men build their own kingdom's and defy anyone to interrupt their little fiefdom. It doesn't take a huge church to produce hundred's of thousands in tithe, that my friend is enough to cause some men to stake their territory. Authority can corrupt, absolute authority can corrupt absolutely. I know there must be leadership, but all leadership must have very close accountability, every man needs someone that can tell him "No". No man should be in position to control the money and the lives of a group of people. AND WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO DO SO?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

There is no questioning that an unclean sock's odor will affect the clean sock, and a bad apple will definitely affect a good apple. However, I would say this analogy breaks down somewhat when you try to apply it in a spiritual context.

Jesus taught in Matthew 15:18-20, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."


A truly clean heart will not be contaminated by coming in contact with sin that is without. This is why Jesus had no problem eating with Publicans and sinners. What is taught in Haggai belongs to another time under a different covenant and relationship with God than what we now enjoy.

We are the salt, so we are the ones affecting others. We are the light so we are the ones dispelling the darkness.

I like that!!! And I have found it to be true.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

There is no questioning that an unclean sock's odor will affect the clean sock, and a bad apple will definitely affect a good apple. However, I would say this analogy breaks down somewhat when you try to apply it in a spiritual context.

Jesus taught in Matthew 15:18-20, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."


A truly clean heart will not be contaminated by coming in contact with sin that is without. This is why Jesus had no problem eating with Publicans and sinners. What is taught in Haggai belongs to another time under a different covenant and relationship with God than what we now enjoy.

We are the salt, so we are the ones affecting others. We are the light so we are the ones dispelling the darkness.

Wow! Sermon of the week! Thanks T.B.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

There is no questioning that an unclean sock's odor will affect the clean sock, and a bad apple will definitely affect a good apple. However, I would say this analogy breaks down somewhat when you try to apply it in a spiritual context.

Jesus taught in Matthew 15:18-20, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."


A truly clean heart will not be contaminated by coming in contact with sin that is without. This is why Jesus had no problem eating with Publicans and sinners. What is taught in Haggai belongs to another time under a different covenant and relationship with God than what we now enjoy.

We are the salt, so we are the ones affecting others. We are the light so we are the ones dispelling the darkness.

Nicely stated!!!

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Wow...I wonder how much Jesus was dirtied by all those publicans and sinners he hung out with.........or how His message was diluted by all the dialog He had with the Pharisees.......

Nice switcheroo. oloroid

. . . . or were you admitting that liberal Apostolics are in need of being evangelized by the conservatives?

The discussion was on fellowship, which is where two groups get together and by and large declare each other to be equivalent, i.e., not lost, not teaching false doctrine, etc.

The discussion was not about reaching the dirty sinners in their squalid environs.

There is an endless siren song for compromise. Some want big things, and others are willing to peck away at it little by little.

Those liberals that ask conservatives to fellowship them are asking the conservatives to de-value some of the beliefs and teachings they value, by tacitly declaring the lack of said beliefs to be equivalent.