Hierarchies are for the World and not the Church

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Yes I said that. I own up to what I say. And you never said what I admitted. So once again, for the third time, what did I admit?

By the way, I haven’t changed what I believe about this passage in the last several years. It is not like I’m being blown about with every wind of doctrine. I don’t believe you’ll be able to find one post where I’ve said otherwise.

Before you said that wasn't speaking of money at all. Unless your still saying that.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Do you attend a church at all?

Yes I do. Regularly. Did you think I just sat home and studied my Bible?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Yes I do. Regularly. Did you think I just sat home and studied my Bible?

Just seems to be a trend on here so was wondering if you were part of the disenfranchised Apostolic group.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Before you said that wasn't speaking of money at all. Unless your still saying that.

Are you sure I said that about this particular verse?

I surely said it wasn’t a tithe. I don’t believe I said that it wasn’t money. Are you getting this verse confused with another?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Just seems to be a trend on here so was wondering if you were part of the disenfranchised Apostolic group.

I thought you were the one who was disenfranchised. Didn’t your church leave the UPCI mother ship (franchise) or am I confusing you with someone else?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I thought you were the one who was disenfranchised. Didn’t your church leave the UPCI mother ship (franchise) or am I confusing you with someone else?

Yea we left, our church and all my Pastors Elders. The UPCI isn't the whole Apostolic movement. Nor could in this day and hour could we call it the Mothership. In days gone by it was though, and for years it was. But, In fact many have left in the past 5 -10 years. At this point there is only 2 UPCI ministers I share their content. All the rest are independent or part of the WPF. Not that I plan it that way, but that's just how it works out. That's who I enjoy listening to.

I know your not going to try to start trying to turn this into a organization battle. Jesus wasn't part of any organization, and that definitely isn't in the Bible. Since you want to talk about hierarchy in churches. A organization especially as it's done by the UPC is done by the votes and election of men. Seems like a terrible extreme to take it to, when you want to say there's no hierarchy in the church. Thats another hierarchy. So now you saying the UPCI is your head? What about Jesus?

[CalledOut238]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Excuse me? So, this means you didn't understand what I was trying to point out by the word ἐπισκοπῆς in the LXX. The Greek ἐπισκοπῆς was used to point out the headship of the overseers. Socrates, and other Ancient Greeks understood the word to be officers who were overseers. Therefore the usage in the LXX as well as the New Testament would also show those who were bishops were leaders of congregations, church families.

Did you graduate from a College or any kind of formalized school? I know that city schools are poor performers and that could be your issue. I have never said there is no place for bishops or elders who lead by example, so you are blatantly lying. Socrates died in 399 BC and the Pentateuch was translated into Greek around the middle of the 3rd century BC into the Septuagint. So Socrates had no influence in writing of the Septuagint LXX. He probably observed the Greek mythology of the twelve Olympians which were very Hierarchal in nature.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

He should ask you to leave quietly. But you should've left on your own. Because, truth is, you aren't there anyway.

You’re a real jerk. What kind of organization would give a you a license?

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The questions indeed hold bearing on what we are discussing. Because you don't believe in the ministerial structure of the Body of Christ.

You’re blatantly lying again. A real leader is an influencer not a dictator. A real leader sets an example not mandates. People follow and listen to the guidance of a real leader because they see the Love in his heart. People do not follow; or obey out of fear, unless you have instilled fear into their hearts. The Fear of the Lord is to hate evil. Being an overlord to the flock is EVIL!

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You believe that everyone is an eye. Therefore were is the job of the hands or feet.

You’re blatantly lying again. I believe the body has separate members each serving a specific function to profit the whole body. You apparently have a hard time understanding metaphors. I would suggest that your feet take you to the prayer room; then folding your hands, while repenting for lying against your brethren.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You are in an church with a pastor who already disagrees with your eschatology, and views on the Jews. Also now his view on the position he holds in the church family.

The Lord has laid on my heart to stay and focus on our shared beliefs. I am not ashamed to say that I have obeyed, because I obey his will and not mine. My Pastor knows that I love and respect his ministry though we differ. Those who cannot love their brethren who differ are a putrid cancer to the Body of Christ.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Elders who are collegial are elders because of time and knowledge. Not just anyone can get up and start ministering to the people. Know them who labor among you? What is Paul doing in his epistles? Follow ME as I follow Christ?

I have had an opportunity to minister in my current church, but I declined. I know exactly what it takes to minister to the saints. Anyone who has heard me speak would tell you that I took that responsibility with the utmost care. Making statements like yours; along with go start a church and come back to me, are egotistical diatribes trying to provoke a response. Paul shunned taking money for his missionary journeys but would carry offerings to other famished saints. He lived off his occupation as a tentmaker while caring for the needs of all the churches. Not like the mammon greedy harlot preachers we have nowadays. Maybe you should follow Paul as he followed Christ.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Ken, in order to follow someone they need to be in front of you.

Wow, deep words from Captain Obvious.

I know the Lord’s voice. And when He calls me and sends me to a work, then I will go. Those who taunt others in that they are nobody if they have no license or ministry currently are ignorant of God’s ways. If a person is sent by God then their ministry will flourish, but I am not ashamed when the Lord commands me to wait upon him. It is no big deal to me if the haters on AFF want to deem me a nobody until I impress them with some NUMBAHS. It is those types of attitudes that need to be cut out of the Body of Christ.

Romans 10:15 (KJV) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Selah

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What "minister" of ANY religion is "licensed with the state" in the US?

In Aquilavania?

Chris posts as a work in progress. Imagine a one on one in person? Where he had not time to access the Internet? To Google, cut a paste his material.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Well . . . you thrash the pastor. You know, out of love for his eternal soul of course. Some are saved by fear , , , that type of thing. Besides it makes for interesting conversation when he tries to explain his appearance down at the local coffee shop.

That's one thing I can't understand about the RCC and the pedophilia thing. Where are the news stories about the dad who thrashes the priest for messing with his son?

I just don't get it . . .

Some will help hide and cover abuse for fear of crossing "spiritual authority".

We are to obey our elders. However, I don't see it as a blind obedience. It is a loving and informed obedience. If they are out of the Word, you entreat them like a father and ideally you can talk to them about it. But all too often, if someone even dares to try to discuss where they think a pastor is not in the Word, they are branded as rebellious or troublemakers.

I do know a pastor who I still dearly love. He was always willing to listen to any question or concern I had. We didn't always agree, but I walked away understanding the "why's" of his position. He was often shockingly honest too. There were times he admitted that it was "district politics", etc. He's a good man and a good pastor. But he's UPCI. Personally, I think he could do better than the org. But, he has his reasons for being a card carrying member. He's a good man.

[CalledOut238]

There is parallel between those who believe in a hierarchal church government and the rejection of Christ as Messiah. The Judeans were suffering under Roman rule and wanted to be set free from their yoke. They were looking for a Messiah to set up a Torah government in Israel with Jerusalem being the center of world government for all Jews and non-Jews (Isaiah 2:2-4, 11:10, and 42:1). Today we see the State of Israel still pursuing this vain endeavor with Dispensational Christians supporting their pursuits. History Repeats itself again and again..

Isaiah 2:2 (KJV)And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The original church founded at Pentecost in Jerusalem began the fulfilling this prophecy. The Apostles spread the Gospel to the known world that our Heavenly Father is Love. The mission of the church is to preach the Kingdom of God is at hand and to teach God’s Love. But we find ourselves promoting wars for Israel and approving the death of infidels. Where has the spirit of Love and forgiveness gone?

Isaiah 11:10 (KJV) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

This prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and continues today. 1 Chronicles 5:1 teaches us the birthright was Josephs and that Christ came for the Lost sheep of Israel. Christ was the promised King in Ezekiel 37, and continues to gather his children today.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

We all can agree that Jesus fulfilled this portion of scripture. Christ had paid the price for the atonement for his followers with his flesh, but now he wants to guide us through the Holyghost. But we still have Messianic teachers using Isaiah to support their millennial eschatology. Jesus ushered in the Kingdom and we continue the work today until judgment.

I see a parallel in the Judeans rejecting Christ because they wanted a ruler not a sacrificial lamb. Ministers today want to be rulers of the congregations instead of being living sacrifices. The compunction of most saints is likened to Stockholm Syndrome in defending their ruling hierarchies. Similar to the Judeans listening to the Edomite Pharisees to kill their own Savior in the name of tradition. What is even more of tragedy is Messianic Christians promoting a Torah hierarchal church government. History repeats itself again and again.

Romans 12:1(KJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Selah