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  #91  
Old 09-02-2016, 03:07 PM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

Aquila - as E says above I do not know where you obtained your abortion data, but it appears incorrect.
Here is another link:
https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/201...101-countries/
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  #92  
Old 09-02-2016, 05:42 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

Here's a point not being discussed. The SCOTUS decision legalizing abortion was illegal and out of the jurisdiction of the court. Most cases the court hears now are out of their jurisdiction. Thus they should be ignored.
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  #93  
Old 09-03-2016, 02:51 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
Found a link that has 50 million.
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.html

And even that number has some serious issues.
Much of the number is based on deaths in the Americas.
And no one knows the population of the Americas pre-discovery.
So, I tend to be highly doubtful of those numbers.
Numbers in Europe/Asia are more reliable.
That's a fair assessment. But I hope you get my main point.
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  #94  
Old 09-03-2016, 03:06 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
We should be "every man for himself' as much as possible. And how often do you hear of someone actually dying from not being able to afford their medication? Someone steps up to the plate in 99% of cases.
Here's a little info on this:

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/dyi...-of-insurance/

My mom died of a massive heart attack at 52 years old. Why? She couldn't afford regular physicals or check-ups. Not could she could she afford the bill for an ER visit when she first had some discomfort which she called "...just a panic attack...". Why couldn't she afford any medical care? She didn't have insurance. It was her death that caused me to investigate this issue so closely. What I found led me to become an advocate and supporter of single payer. If she had insurance she would have had her physicals, check-ups, and she wouldn't have put off going to the ER for fear of the bill. Who knows? Had she had insurance, there's a good chance she might be with us today.
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  #95  
Old 09-03-2016, 03:11 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Here's a point not being discussed. The SCOTUS decision legalizing abortion was illegal and out of the jurisdiction of the court. Most cases the court hears now are out of their jurisdiction. Thus they should be ignored.
That's debatable. The question was ultimately about the woman's 4th Amendment rights regarding her security of her own person (body). At least that was the focus of her case and the court's deliberation.
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  #96  
Old 09-03-2016, 03:15 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

What is interesting is that abortion was legal in many states and localities up until the mid 1800's. There are even old ads advertising the service in various publications.
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  #97  
Old 09-03-2016, 06:21 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Here's a little info on this:

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/dyi...-of-insurance/

My mom died of a massive heart attack at 52 years old. Why? She couldn't afford regular physicals or check-ups. Not could she could she afford the bill for an ER visit when she first had some discomfort which she called "...just a panic attack...". Why couldn't she afford any medical care? She didn't have insurance. It was her death that caused me to investigate this issue so closely. What I found led me to become an advocate and supporter of single payer. If she had insurance she would have had her physicals, check-ups, and she wouldn't have put off going to the ER for fear of the bill. Who knows? Had she had insurance, there's a good chance she might be with us today.
I suppose God has no control over how many days we get on this earth, then. Too bad God didn't command government sponsored and managed health insurance. He should have known better.

You do realise you are, in essence, advocating for EVERYONE to wind up at the VA for their health care, right?
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  #98  
Old 09-03-2016, 06:30 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
What is interesting is that abortion was legal in many states and localities up until the mid 1800's. There are even old ads advertising the service in various publications.
http://www.abort73.com/abortion_fact...rtion_history/

"The first known conviction for the "intention to abort" was handed down in Maryland in the year 1652.1 Four years later, also in Maryland, a woman was arrested for murder after procuring an abortion, but the case was thrown out when she married the only witness, who then refused to testify.2 A 1710 Virginia law made it a capital crime to conceal a pregnancy and then be found with a dead baby.3 Likewise, a 1719 Delaware law made anyone who counseled abortion or infanticide an accessory to murder.4 Olasky notes that at this point in history, "infanticide was probably the most frequent way of killing unwanted, illegitimate children."5 "Abortifacients were known and used in early America," but since using them "was like playing Russian roulette with three bullets in the chambers."6

While individual state laws were varied and didn't always have specific legislation for abortion and/or infanticide, those that did all shared a common problem. It was almost impossible to produce the evidence necessary to convict. Pregnancy was hard to confirm, there was almost never a corpse or witness, and there was always a great deal of jury sympathy for desperate and abandoned women. Nevertheless, there were plenty of non-legislative factors working against the widespread use of abortion and infanticide. One of the chief of these factors was the existing social pressure that expected a man to "act honorably" and propose marriage if he impregnated a woman out of wedlock. "In one Massachusetts county during the 1760's, over 80 percent of non-maritally conceived births were legitimated by the marriage of their parents, and counties in other colonies had similar records... Where fathers resolutely refused marriage, courts in Virginia and other colonies ordered payment. Thus economic desperation was unlikely to drive most unmarried, pregnant women to infanticide or abortion."7

Adding to the influence of society in general was a religious community that uniformly condemned abortion, both for the way the Bible speaks of unborn children and for the testimony of well-known church pillars, the likes of John Calvin, who explicitly forbade abortion. The scientific community, from the 1600's all the way through to the 1800's, believed that babies actually existed before conception, in either the sperm or the egg. Such thinking, faulty though it was, was another anti-abortion influence. Finally, the very difficulty of confirming pregnancy before quickening, made early abortions almost impossible, and late term abortions ruined marriage prospects and were extremely dangerous. "With physical, social, theological and 'scientific' reasons all making abortion unacceptable, only those in extreme duress or with contempt for existing standards would resort to it."8"

Much more at the article, including the history of abortion laws and the factors which led to increases in abortion rates.
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  #99  
Old 09-03-2016, 07:18 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
What is interesting is that abortion was legal in many states and localities up until the mid 1800's. There are even old ads advertising the service in various publications.
That is just it. It was a State issue and should have remained so.
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  #100  
Old 09-03-2016, 09:18 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Christian lead separatist movement

A - I do agree with you that we do need some type of healthcare option for everyone.
What I do not agree about is the government running the program.
There are many ways to improve our system but a single payer system would be a nightmare.
If we would look at Germany's system as a starting point, it would help.
Obamacare has been a disaster.
But some companies, (including some I used to work for) made billions from the bill.
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