Hell In Question

[Scott Hutchinson]

This thread reminds me of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX8M1LG1Yng

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Brother Blume,

What would the purpose be for an "eternal Hell of torment"?

Bro., I never said hell was eternal, and I never said it was not. I simply do not dwell on that issue.

And I think that saying hell will cease to exist one day due to its occupants getting saved out of it and put into heaven is simply nonsensical beyond comprehension.

I can far more understand hell ceasing to exist perhaps due to its victims being destroyed from existence. But UR is OUT, for me.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bro., I never said hell was eternal, and I never said it was not. I simply do not dwell on that issue.

And I think that saying hell will cease to exist one day due to its occupants getting saved out of it and put into heaven is simply nonsensical beyond comprehension.

I can far more understand hell ceasing to exist perhaps due to its victims being destroyed from existence. But UR is OUT, for me.

I've wrestled with it for a long time. I've always believed in an immortal soul that was eternal. I "dabbled' with the idea of "annihilationism" but found it to be just as problematic as eternal torment. The idea that Satan will succeed in bringing 90% or more of mankind to destruction is just as problematic as Satan succeeding in bringing 90% or more of mankind to eternal torments. Either way...Satan wins. Satan knows he cannot defeat God, his agenda right now is to bring as much of mankind down with him as possible. I've walked around with ever increasing depression over the subject as the years have passed. I look around and Satan is victorious on every front....I find it hard to maintain my joy. When I heard of the teaching of Universal Reconciliation what appealed to me is that Satan wins nothing according to Universalists. Yes, the majority of mankind is in sin and will undergo terrible punishment...but the punishment is designed to purify and to correct them that they might be reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus Christ. One has a choice...they can choose to be baptized with the Holy Ghost and be purified by the Gospel...or they can be baptized with fire and be purified in Hell's flame. Either way...a fearsome, but loving, God will purify his creation. In the end Satan will have one nothing. To me, that's powerful.

As for the dead becoming "saved". If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever...why can't he save from Hell? Especially if a soul has indeed paid the last mite? The idea that God's grace continues to beckon for all eternity isn't much of a leap from the idea that God's wrath destroys for all of eternity. The question is...what idea adequately describes God's nature?

Regarding annihilationism, the following verse might shed some light....

I Corinthians 15:22-26
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Here we read about how through Adam all death (both spiritual and physical) passed upon all men and how life all men are to be made alive. But each man in his own order. First, we see Christ, the firstfruits. Second, we see we who are Christ's at his coming. Thirdly, the end comes when Christ will have brought down all rule, authority, and power. He then delivers the kingdom to the Father. But until then he reigns until he will have put all enemies under his feet. The last verse is interesting. It states that the last enemy that shall be destroyed is "death". Death ceases to be. That has powerful implications. Because for "death" to cease to be, then not only dying, but even the state of being dead has to cease to be. Because if something remained "dead" (however one might wish to define it) "death" remains. If death is destroyed...it can only be the result of all being made alive, as specified in verse 22.

I had read a question wherein the author asked if the Bible were to make a statement regarding universal salvation, what would it say? And the following verses were presented for thought...

Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

Psalms 86:9
All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalms 65:2-4
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Psalms 66:3-4
Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee. All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

Psalms 145:9-16
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee. They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power; To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom. Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations. The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down. The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season. Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.

Lamentations 3:31-32
For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

The implications of the above verses are very interesting. All of God's works will praise him, all that nations (peoples) that he has made shall praise him. All flesh shall come unto him, he purges away their transgressions, and causes men to approach unto him. He doesn't cast off forever, but though he causes grief, he will still have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. These statements do cause one to pause if we take them literally.

It's interesting because those who advocate eternal torments or eternal destruction disregard these texts or put "qualifiers" on them to minimize their scope. Universalism tends to take these texts for what they say, while also accepting texts that imply punishment. But like the annihilationists, the universalists see the punishment as being temporary. Yet the annihilationist and the universalist walk away with two conclusions. The annihilationist believes that the punishment ends because the wicked are destroyed. The universalist believes that the punishment ends because the sinful nature of the wicked is destroyed, purged, purified, or burned out of them and the end result is reconciliation.

I also began reading quite a bit about the afterlife while studying this. One cannot study the afterlife without encountering "NDEs" or "Near Death Experiences". What's interesting about NDEs is that the vast majority of them have a universalist perspective. Why is this?

In the end I do know this...anything that isn't submitted to God and desires to continue in sinful rebellion against his authority will remain in Hell for sure. I imagine that under universalism Hell would be eternal for those who will NEVER submit. However Scripture gives us a blessed promise....

Philippians 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[Truthseeker]

UR does have some strong points.

If 95% or so will burn for ever then we ought to rejoice for every baby that dies and abortions that kept millions from torments. If all aborted babies go to heaven then the clinics have a 100% saving rate.

[mfblume]

Bro, I do not think it is an issue of satan winning or succeeding as opposed to God losing. It is a case of God checking out all who would obey Him lest the same error with satan repeat itself all over again with someone else. We need to view the issue from the concepts and perspectives which the Bible presents them, not with assumptions not explained by scripture as to who "wins". The bible simply does not treat the issue like that.

Hell has no thoughts made about it that give anyone hope. The bible says flat-out that there are those who have no hope. If they can be saved out of hell one day, then that passage is a lie.

1 Thess 4:13

Find me one verse that gives explicit hope to the soul who explicitly is said to go to a devil's hell.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

This thread reminds me of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX8M1LG1Yng

So those who are lost will be cast into a volcano?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

UR does have some strong points.

If 95% or so will burn for ever then we ought to rejoice for every baby that dies and abortions that kept millions from torments. If all aborted babies go to heaven then the clinics have a 100% saving rate.

Personally, I see no strongpoints for it at all. It's too presumptuous. It reminds me of the Catholic doctrines that were contrived due to reasoning things out that the bible never taught, such as assuming Mary's sinlessness due to having birthed the Son of God.

There is enough in the bible to learn and take our entire lives applying to ourselves than to get into issues the bible does not talk about and direct us to think about, such as assuming things out of reasoning like UR.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bro, I do not think it is an issue of satan winning or succeeding as opposed to God losing. It is a case of God checking out all who would obey Him lest the same error with satan repeat itself all over again with someone else. We need to view the issue from the concepts and perspectives which the Bible presents them, not with assumptions not explained by scripture as to who "wins". The bible simply does not treat the issue like that.

That's an interesting perspective Bro. Blume, you believe that God is essentially trying mankind to weed out those who would rebel in eternity? I've not heard that before, where in Scripture do you get this idea?

I don't think that holds much weight though. Because Satan was an angel and served God from eternity past. If Satan could rebel, any being with free will could choose to rebel at any time in the future...even if God widdled it down to saving only one human being. Eventually in the countless eons of eternity that human being could choose to rebel.

But I think it's a fair question to ask. Satan's desire is to destroy as man human souls as possible....Christ died to save the world. At the end of the day...who wins?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

UR does have some strong points.

If 95% or so will burn for ever then we ought to rejoice for every baby that dies and abortions that kept millions from torments. If all aborted babies go to heaven then the clinics have a 100% saving rate.

Disturbing but true. Perhaps that's why God allowed abortion to be legalized. We're doing such a terrible job at reaching the lost God might be allowing the heathen to kill babies to save souls.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Personally, I see no strongpoints for it at all. It's too presumptuous. It reminds me of the Catholic doctrines that were contrived due to reasoning things out that the bible never taught, such as assuming Mary's sinlessness due to having birthed the Son of God.

There is enough in the bible to learn and take our entire lives applying to ourselves than to get into issues the bible does not talk about and direct us to think about, such as assuming things out of reasoning like UR.

I think Catholic doctrines are interesting. Because for the most part Catholics embrace the idea of an eternal Hell. However, they were faced with texts such as Matthew 25:46 and their theologians met it's demands with the notion of purgatory.

What is your take on Matthew 25:46?

Matthew 25:46
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (kolasis): but the righteous into life eternal.

In Greek literature the term "kolasis" is used regarding pruning or remedial action taken to make something grow straight or to correct it. This "eternal correction" doesn't have the connotation of everlasting torture or brutal torment....but rather a severe chastisement and correction geared toward making something desirable. I often use this personal example, when I was younger I cursed my father to his face. He took his belt off and brutally whipped me. It was the most severe and terrifying beating I ever received. To this day I will not curse him. The very thought of it causes me to remember that night. It was an "eternal punishment" in that the effect of that punishment has left an eternal mark on me....though my father didn't commit to beating me every day for the rest of eternity. That's "kolasis". While it's translated "punishment" or "torment" in the KJV Strong's lists it as meaning...

2851 // kolasiv // kolasis // kol'-as-is //

from 2849 ; TDNT - 3:816,451; n f

1) correction, punishment, penalty

It's root is "kolazo", listed as meaning....

2849 // kolazw // kolazo // kol-ad'-zo //

from kolos (dwarf); TDNT - 3:814,451; v

1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Something to think about.