Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What's interesting is the idea of "cutting the hair". In most people's conversation, this means more than a 1 inch trim of the ends. If a woman trimmed her split ends, nobody would say "Oh, you got a hair cut!" unless the hair was shortened significantly.

Thus, when reading older historical records speaking of how women "did not cut their hair", it is not conclusive that they did not occasionally trim a bit off the ends to manage split ends, etc. It is more likely meaning they did not cut their hair so as to significantly reduce it's apparent length.

Of course, trimming split ends cannot be ruled out, either, unless there is specific mention of that. I have been searching for documentation concerning this, and unfortunately cannot find anything other than references to "cutting", without more specificity as to exactly how much is being referred to.

So, I think both sides of the debate need more specific documentation. An older document referring specifically to "trimming a tiny amount" would be most helpful.

maybe there is not more documentation because until recently grown men didn't feel the need to spend years of their life debating the subject.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by rdp

*I do not have the time to just sit here & chase your smoke screens & diversionary tactics.

Not sure exactly what evidence from "the Greek Bible" you're wanting if you will not accept these standard authorities & professional linguists.

I'm wanting one or two verses with this verb besides 1 Cor 11.6 from either the Greek OT or NT, i.e., "the Greek Bible," that definitely mean only "to cut." That is a reasonable request.

You have not provided that. Because you can't.

BDAG doesn't provide that either.

Your entire argument is that BDAG and other authorities say this verb simply means "to cut." But outside of this verse there is no support for that translation. 1 Cor 11.6 is the only verse listed in BDAG for this possible meaning. Without other examples to weigh and consider, no one can just assert it means only "to cut" when I have provided a great deal of evidence from the Greek OT and NT and from other Koine sources that this verb normally means "to cut off"--regarding males, females, and even sheep!

Your entire doctrine ultimately is based on a single disputed passage. You cannot support the doctrine of uncut hair from even one other passage. That is not how you exegete Scripture.

I've provided authorities too, noting that no major modern translation or major commentary support you. You of course dismiss them out of hand.

You note that there are translations that do support you. I looked over your blog to see which ones you quote. You mention that the Today's English Version and CEV read "to cut." This is true for these minor dynamic-equivalent translations/paraphrases.

Then I came across this on your blog, which after all these posts really surprised me, in which you list some more authorities.

*Analytical Greek NT Lexicon: “middle cut one’s hair, have one’s hair cut off (1 C 11.6).”

*Louw & Nida’s Greek-English Lexicon Based upon Semantic Domain: 19.23 “κείρω to cut the hair of a person or animal – to cut hair, to shear. εἰ γὰρ οὐ κατακαλύπτεται γυνήκαὶ κειράσθω if the woman does not cover her head, she might as well cut her hair 1CO. 11.6″

*For these grammatical reasons, many linguists have translated this verb as “cut off,” or simply “to cut” (e.g., RSV, NEB, Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts, NAB, NIV, Amplified Bible, James Moffatt).

Regarding what is in bold, why on earth haven't you admitted this before?!

The Louw&Nida is interesting because it mentions cutting the hair of a person (not just a woman) or an animal. Again, all the examples of this involve cutting it all off, like shearing a sheep.

Following your admission that "many linguists have translated this verb as “cut off" or simply as "to cut," you then list examples of translations, implying that some translate it "to cut." You mention the RSV, NEB, NAB, NIV, Amplified Bible, and James Moffatt. I checked all these online and none of them say just "to cut" but rather translate it to "cut off."

In sum, you have no additional biblical verses from the Greek OT or NT, no major modern translations, and no major commentaries that support your interpretation of 1 Cor 11.6.

I, in contrast, have many additional biblical verses from the Greek OT and NT, all the major modern translations, and the major commentaries that support my interpretation of 1 Cor 11.6--and of course there are the many linguists as well that you admit support the translation "to cut off."

I know we are not going to come to an agreement, but I am glad for the opportunity to have discussed this with you. God bless.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Amanah

maybe there is not more documentation because until recently grown men didn't feel the need to spend years of their life debating the subject.

I'm sorry to come across as childish for debating this at length. I figured you might be deeply interested in the debate since, as a woman, you are potentially affected much more by the interpretation of this passage than I might be.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I'm sorry to come across as childish for debating this at length. I figured you might be deeply interested in the debate since, as a woman, you are potentially affected much more by the interpretation of this passage than I might be.

I apologize, didn't mean to be offensive. And I don't think you are childish at all. I suspect that until recently it wasn't an issue because all women had long hair and covered their heads. I honestly think both interpretations have merit.

[JamesGlen]

I have only had time to read the first five pages of this thread...
However,
Backing up a verse that was brough up earlier, let’s also add facial hair on men to our long hair on women doctrine

Rev. 9 ...
and their faces were as the faces of men. (Beards!)

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, (Long hair)

[Truthseeker]

I find it interesting that no one can provide one command from God or the Law that speaks against cutting hair. How would the OT sisters know to not cur their hair?

"sin is transgression of the law" If its not commanded how would they know its sin to cut their hair?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

maybe there is not more documentation because until recently grown men didn't feel the need to spend years of their life debating the subject.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

not really, I feel bad for posting that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

not really, I feel bad for posting that.

Sometimes we need someone to point out when we are splitting hairs.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I apologize, didn't mean to be offensive. And I don't think you are childish at all. I suspect that until recently it wasn't an issue because all women had long hair and covered their heads. I honestly think both interpretations have merit.

Well that's very kind of you, but no offense taken. I was not intending for what I said to you to come across as a rebuke, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I think it was 5 am when I posted. :-) I had just had a conversation earlier in the day with a friend who had asked me what I had been up to. I mentioned I was discussing this topic on a forum, and he asked me what women had been saying and arguing, since after all practically speaking this effects y'all more than us. And it struck me that we hadn't heard from a woman yet. So it was from out of those thoughts that I wrote my reply to you.

As far as both views having merit, to be frank, part of me would prefer the doctrine of uncut hair to be true. I have been in a UPCI church for almost 30 years and, well, uncut hair has been a part of that, and so it's a part of my tradition and cherished experience. I've deeply admired many godly women who have not cut their hair out of a commitment to the Lord and a desire to obey His Word, even though it was not convenient and at times was a burden and a source of mockery from others. I respect that kind of commitment so much.

God bless!