Why shouldn't I vote for Obama??

[Sister Alvear]

I am off to service...I wish you folks could look over my shoulder today...

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by scotty

America is not what it used to be and it never will be again. Over time the powers that be have given in little by little to compromise. Yes, McCain has compromised much to his conservative base. Does that mean we too now have to compromise our moral values to support someone in order to have at least one of the issues we want on the table? Bro. Hall would have us believe so. He himself has compromised the label of “Christian” by applying it to Obama who is a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, trinitarian. Is that discription found under the definition of the word Christian ? Do you believe the apostles would have used those words to describe themselves?

Scotty, first I'd like to say your statements are very offensive, I imagined that you would be thoughtful and actually hear what I'm communicating, though you might disagree.

Scotty, the art of politics is compromise. It's appealing to all men's better angels regardless of their own personal interests. Religion is founded upon absolute truths. The two are not similar in any way. I get the feeling that you don't want a country. A country would be too diverse for you. You want a massive CHURCH politically ruling the land. As I said a moment ago, politics is the art of compromise...coming half way, and finding consensus. For example we might disagree with the use of alcohol. Yet many Americans desire to use alcohol (some in moderation some do abuse it). So what are we to do? In our churches we can take an absolute stand against it. No member using alcohol can be in good standing. Period. No negotiating, no compromise. However, in politics it's different. We agree to disagree. We set guidelines the majority can agree with. Like age standards for purchase, laws regarding transporting open containers, laws regarding driving while intoxicated, laws regarding public intoxication. It's a compromise to keep civic harmony and maintain personal liberties between people of different opinions. For that reason I'd never support a ban on alcohol, but I might not agree with the notion of a church member being a drunkard remaining in good standard or serving in leadership. No compromise...in the church. I know a of a man in Canada that pastors a conservative church in the same city there are churches that perform civil unions for gay couples. This pastor acknowledges that these churches have the freedom to practice their religion as they see it...however his church will NEVER perform a civil union between gay people. Notice that in politics he understands civility and agrees to disagee, however in faith he is uncompromising. Sadly, most American Christians aren't this spiritually mature. American Christians assume that if you're not for government outlawing everything they consider sinful you've somehow compromised your faith. I disagree. Politics is politics. It keeps the peace and allows many different folk to find their freedom to pursue happiness in our country. However...religion and religion. And under no circumstances will Bible believing churches allow unbiblical relationships or practices into their assemblies. The church is uncompromising where she stands.

I want to also point out a big lie we often tell as Christians. I'll admt, I've told this lie too. I have often said that Democrats are "Pro-Abortion". Let's really look at that statement. "Pro-Abortion" means, advocating that everyone have an abortion, encouraging it, and perhaps even mandating it like some communist countries do. But the truth is that most Democrats aren't "Pro-Abortion". Most Democrats see abortion as an issue that needs to be addressed and prevented. The Democrats I know sincerely want to see the abortion rate lowered in America. I've talked with women who have had abortions. I've heard them tell their stories with tear filled eyes looking for grace and forgiveness for having done something so henious. One woman said something I'll never forget. She said, "Chris, no little girl ever said, 'Mommy I want to have an abortion when I grow up.'" She went on to explain how desperate her situation was and how fearful she was. Her family was about to throw her into the streets if she didn't abort it. Her boyfriend, who lied to her and seduced her walked out on her. She had no job and was in school. Her parents told her she was ruining her entire future if she had her baby. She couldn't make enough money working at McDonald's to pay for an apartment, vehicle, food, etc. Also she had no health insurance and where she's located pregnancy is considered a "pre-existing condition" by many insurerers she was looking into and they wouldn't cover her pregnancy. Her friends were pressuring her to think about herself and her future. She wanted thought about adoption but found that she'd want to keep the baby if carried to term. So in desperation she gave in and opted for abortion. Women who choose abortion are typically in a very desperate position. One woman I talked to had a boyfriend who got her hooked on drugs and began to prostitute her. She got pregnant and she feared for her life. Her boyfriend beat her badly one night demanding that she have an abortion. She was so terrified and addicted to drugs she gave in and had an abortion. Bro...when you hear the word abortion, think of the word "desperation". Many of these women feel absolutely desperate and trapped, often forced into making their choice. In America before Roe the abortion rate was higher than it is today. Why? First, there's more birth control available today. Second, women have more places to turn for assistance. You have to realize that we have to address the deeper issues behind abortion. Banning abortion will do little to reduce the abortion rate. Not to mention...no judge or politician has the desire to ban abortion. Even strict conservative judges will rule on the side of choice. Why? Because abortion was legal in the US until roughly the mid 1800's. Even in the time of George Washington there were abortion procedures. Doctors often refered to the "quickening". They wouldn't perform an abortion if they found movement. But that was a general rule embraced voluntarily by physicians. So even constructionist judges argue that our founders had no intention on banning abortion because the issue isn't even addressed by them. The issue was only addressed in various states at the state level throughout the union and that's it. So the point is, I don' now of anyone who is truly "Pro-Abortion". Most Democrats and moderate Republicans I know are "Pro-Choice". That simply means they believe the situation is best left in the hands of individual women to decide. They feel the government shouldn't entangle itself in this issue because it's so personal and so difficult on many levels. Even most "Pro-Life" Republicans acknowledge that abortion should be legal in cases of rape, incest, or to protect the life and health of the mother. That means they would favor allowing a woman to choose abortion if raped or molested, that means they favor killing the unborn for the sin of it's father. They would also allow the woman to have an abortion to protect her life and health, setting the precident that the welfare of the woman in question is the primary concern under the law. Here's the deal. Abortion isn't going away. No Western nation that has legalized abortion has ever shifted back into prohibition on abortion. It's time we realize that it's not going to happen. That means we have to look at the issues that make women feel so desperate they choose to abort. That means that we who are Pro-Life have to realize that punching a ballot in the voting both does NOTHING to save lives. What will help women? Policies that provide contraceptives to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies and policies that offer assistance to women with crisis pregnancies. But here's the issue...those conservative pro-life people you hear chanting about how sacred they believe life is....they are unwilling to pay a dime in taxes to help any of this programs get off the ground. Programs like WIC that many poor mothers depend upon are slashed and hacked when it comes to their funding and women find that they have fewer places to turn and even less help. Guess what...that means MORE abortion. Most of these "pro-life" conservatives are against provisions making contraceptives more available and covered under all health insurance. Guess what that means...more unplanned pregnancies and...more abortion. I don't mean to be mean...but don't tell me you're pro-life and then argue against measures that will reduce the rate of abortion in the US. I've stated many times, and I've noticed that some of caught on, countries in Western Europe have used these measures to reduce abortion rates drastically even though abortions are legal in their countries. Sadly, conservatives are against doing these things...therefore they are against reducing the numbers of abortion.

There's more than one way to combat abortion. But the conservatives have yet to catch on.

[ChristopherHall]

Continued:

Where do we stop compromising? Where do we stop altogether? Do we give in to these immoral issues so we can have cheaper health insurance ? Is that an acceptable compromise?

It's not about "cheaper" health insurance. It's like the subject above...committing to measures that will save lives. In America thousands of people die every year because they can't afford the treatment they need. Obviously some don't care. They say they care about the unborn and their lives...but they don't seem to care about these thousands who die every year. They say they care for the lives of the unborn...yet most would be born into families that don't have health insurance and cannot see to it that they get proper medical attention if needed. There's the story of one young man born into a black family in a major US city. This young man was part of the demographic that is most often aborted...conceived by a single mother, conceived in poverty, and black (higher rates of abortion is found among the poor black communities). But his mother believed in the value of life and had her baby. She worked two jobs and was barely ever home. He stayed with his grandma most days while mom worked. Though his mom worked two jobs she could only afford to barely make ends meet. She still couldnt afford health insurance. When this young man was 8 years old he came down with a serious dental infection. He was turned away from treatment because their family didn't have health insurance and couldn't afford to pay a high percentage up front. His family turned to current programs that help folks without insurance. Well, because she worked two jobs and had an income she was denied the subsidized coverage. Charities she turned to said they had more desperate cases and that she was put on a waiting list for assistance. Well...her sons dental infection got worse during this period and the infection eventually spread into his brain. He later died after being rushed to the ER. What amazes me is that so many who call themselves "Pro-Life" would fight tooth and nail to see to it that this young man was born...but so few were willing to also stand up and advocate that he and thousands of other Americans who died that year have the health insurance they needed to save their lives. Frankly, those who say they are "Pro-Life" and stop at the abortion issue are not "Pro-Life"....they are merely "Anti-Abortion", many of them could care less that so many die without health insurance. I'm one of many who believe in the sanctity of life who believes that the responsiblity of being pro-life means advocating for health and quality of life from the womb to the tomb. That's what I believe is REAL pro-life.

As for gay rights. Frankly, gays make me sick. But it's a free country. As long as some man doesn't sneak into my room some night and try to gay marry me I don't care what they do in private because my God sees all men's sins and will judge them accordingly. I assure you where ever they allow gay marriage the gospel will bring "gay divorce", especially when he sets one of them free. lol

Hillary and Obama have both side step the question of whether or not they will continue to support Israel. Is that an acceptable compromise? The Bible says all nations will rise up against Israel, not some, but all. That includes us. So these candidates could easily fit that role. Both also are members of lobby groups that are systematicly removing God from every aspect of life they possibly can. Is that an acceptable compromise?

Israel is a backslidden nation that needs to repent and believe the gospel, so I'm not spiritual enamored with them. Now, as for government polices. We are too entrenched with Israel. It doesn't matter who's elected, we have too many treaties and agreements with Israel to end supporting her. We may ask that she be more equitable to the Palistinians. They didn't ask for this. They are just people like you and me who want to work and raise families. Suddenly in 1948 the UN took Palistine away from them and gave it back to the Jews. Did the Jewish people humbly begin working side by side with the Palistinians? No. It was virtually open warfare with both sides fighting for land they each firmly believed was their own. Frankly, while I support the UN giving Israel the land, I don't think Israel has behaved all that wisely in how she's delt with those who lived there and raised families there for centuries before they returned. In many ways I think we're just trying to moderate between two people that have no love or respect for eachother and never will. I can only hope each side realizes that no one will gain anything by constant war.

The Democrats aren't going to remove God from every aspect of life. And it's not their mission to do so. I was listening to an interview of Jim Wallis earlier today indicating that more and more liberals are discovering their Christian faith. More and more Evangelicals are deciding that the extremists in the Christian Right don't speak for them nor Jesus and are choosing to cross over into the progressive camp. More pastors are writing books like The Revolution and A New Kind of Conservative that advocate more progressive approaches to today's issues because the conservative positions just aren't working. Bro, they ain't going to remove God from public life. And even if they tried...God would arise and put them into derision. God doesn't need you or I to defend him. It amazes me how we think we have to defend God like he's some scared little girl the liberals are bullying around. That's one thing that turns me off from the far right. They think they and the liberals are more powerful than God. They think they have to rush to God's help because he can't stop the ACLU all by himself. Hogwash. The moment they try to remove God from public life...is the moment God will reveal himself mighty before all peoples. When we moderates hear that some extreme liberal is trying to ban God from public life, we don't feel we have to defend our God. We know he's able. We just say a prayer for those poor deluded souls and ask that God not hurt them too badly when he demonstrates his power over even them.

I believe as Sister Alvear and many others that time is coming to the end. We are not trying to be prophetic. Just something in the “spiritual” air. Recent conferences, meetings, ministries, sermons and interpretations have all pointed and talk of the end time revival. With that will come the increased persecution. These anti-God groups and their candidates would fit well in that role wouldn't they?

I think you're missing the heart beat of God. These groups are not the enemy. Even the most extreme godless liberal isn't the enemy. In fact, it is these individuals God expects us to reach. These "godless liberals" are the reason we are here, they are souls God desires us to bring into reconciliation. Satan has a deception he's used...he has confused us and made us hate and fight the very people we're supposed to be trying to forge a relationship with and win. Satan has tricked us into declaring war against the mission field! I too believe that something big is about to happen. But when it does I believe God is going to turn the tables. I believe that it's going to be like how he delt with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. When God begins to move he will bring many to their knees and it will be these liberals who are trying to find God in droves...because they are the ones who don't know him. These will not suddenly become conservatives, but they will be seeking answers and healing and we have to be there ready to minister to them and help them find the Lord. Of course when the storm hits Satan wants us on the radio and television saying, "This is the fault of all those liberals! Yes this is all their fault!" He knows that when we act like this the unsaved masses just begin to walk away from us. The enemy is tricky...he's turned us against the very people we have to reach. They may never completely agree with our politics...but they are souls and we have to set politics aside and reach them.

Of course the Right Wing nutcases are going to stand in the way and hinder the gospel...just like the Pharisees of old.

Doesn't the Bible say that God sets up the nations kings and rulers? So wouldn't Gods will be done whether we voted or not? If we voted for the other guy, would Gods will be thwarted?

Your exactly right. I'll tell you what, twice I voted what my Christian Coalition packet told me to vote and I didn't see my choice win. However, when I've praye and asked God who he has chosen and voted what I felt, I hit it dead on.

[scotty]

Sorry Bro. Hall, all I got out of your above post was one big compromise. I am not advocating half the things you stated. You quoted my post then turned right around and put your own opinion to it. Kind of like my wife does. Her favorite line is "so what you mean is" and then the next words out of her mouth don't even come close to ressembling what I said.
What I posted is exactly what I mean.
How do you figure that the anti-God groups are not the enemy. If you can convince them then fine but if not then cast yourself away from them. I can't begin to count the number of scripture for that. Even the apostles were told to kick the dust from their feet in protest of those who don't accept the truth. Just because the rest of the world goes down does not mean I have to accept it or compromise myself. Bro. Hall you have traded the Bible for Hillary Clintons book "It takes a village". The well written post is like reading something from Moveon.org.

Sorry bro. we will have to agree to disagree. As I said, the country you long for is coming, that much I will admit, I chose to keep myself as far from it as possible. I know however I am about to suffer tremendously. As soon as they take office my taxes will go up and my company will suffer thus my income will suffer. But I guess the government will take care of me, huh?

[RandyWayne]

The country that many long for is one where anyone who earns more then them in a given year is required to pay for their services. This is somehow justified by using various words in the bible concerning "the poor".

I always wondered at the reaction if legislation was proposed that ANYONE receiving more benefits then taxes paid, were forced to sign a "Thank You!" card that would be delivered to a random person who PAID more taxes than benefits received. I am sure the outrage would be deafening!

[scotty]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

The country that many long for is one where anyone who earns more then them in a given year is required to pay for their services. This is somehow justified by using various words in the bible concerning "the poor".

I always wondered at the reaction if legislation was proposed that ANYONE receiving more benefits then taxes paid, were forced to sign a "Thank You!" card that would be delivered to a random person who PAID more taxes than benefits received. I am sure the outrage would be deafening!

PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ukjustin87]

Originally Posted by StMark

his mother,in a radio interview slipped and told that Obama was baptized(or whatever their initiation is) as a muslim when he was a child. he went to catholic school for one year and uses that as a cover.

This is completely untrue information. To begin with to be a Muslim you are not baptized or have an initiation. The only requirement to be a Muslim is to confess the Tawhid (Oneness of God). After this they are to believe the basic tenants of Islam (in angels, Tawhid, the Holy Books (which includes the Bible), the Prophets, the resurrection and judgement, and divine fate). They are also to follow the five pillars which include prayer, fasting, charity, pilgrimage, confessing tawhid.

So, if Obama is a Muslim, which he isn't, I can guarantee you that it would have been reported on in the Mainstream media because it would be extremely hard to hide. I mean, it would be fairly hard to hide praying five times a day and going on a Pilgrimage when you are constantly in the media.

If you want to argue against the policy positions of Obama that is fine, but these false accusations of him being Muslim are frankly starting to get old.

[StMark]

Originally Posted by ukjustin87

This is completely untrue information. To begin with to be a Muslim you are not baptized or have an initiation. The only requirement to be a Muslim is to confess the Tawhid (Oneness of God). After this they are to believe the basic tenants of Islam (in angels, Tawhid, the Holy Books (which includes the Bible), the Prophets, the resurrection and judgement, and divine fate). They are also to follow the five pillars which include prayer, fasting, charity, pilgrimage, confessing tawhid.

So, if Obama is a Muslim, which he isn't, I can guarantee you that it would have been reported on in the Mainstream media because it would be extremely hard to hide. I mean, it would be fairly hard to hide praying five times a day and going on a Pilgrimage when you are constantly in the media.

If you want to argue against the policy positions of Obama that is fine, but these false accusations of him being Muslim are frankly starting to get old.

You think what you want to think. There are muslims of all stripes just like there are so called christians. If you want to support Obama and cast your vote for him you are free to do that.

These really are frieghtening times- especially when even God's people can't see what is coming upon us

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

It's complicated. Embasies, bases, and ships in foreign countries are largely pretty vulnerable if those countries have loose security. President Clinton cannot control the security protocols of other countries. And let me make a correction, we did see terrorists hit the WTC in 93. However, Clinton was able to bring the mastermind behind the attacks to justice. Osama bin Laden is still free. It was after 93 that President Clinton got real strong on domestic measures to protect us from terror. If you remember President Clinton was resisted by the Republican congress when trying to pass anti-terror legislation. The Republicans forced a compromise on several provisions of the anti-terror bill. Some of those provisions the Republicans got thrown out in the 90s were contained in the Patriot Act. It's an interesting study.

I'm with you on the bolded part, but Bin Laden was responsible for those attacks and Clinton did nothing about them. That was my point.

[Sister Alvear]

sad that many seeing eyes are blinded to the time we live in...