Question, If you must believe in it for it to effect you, then how did Simon in Acts hold an entire city under his sway?
Aquila and I obviously have different takes on this subject, but in response to your question: The people of Samaria obviously believed in the power of Simon's sorcery. Acts 8:9-10.
Notice in the further context that neither Philip nor the Apostles when they arrived, gave heed to the "sorcery" or claims of "magick" or whatever. The Christians simply went about their business and acted like the "sorcery" didn't exist and that it wasn't even a consideration when it came to Christian living.
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Originally Posted by Nibenon
Also, Energy is an integral part of everything we do. Ask a professional martial artist. They will tell you the effects of Energy, beit Ki, chi, chakra, or any other term. Spells are real. And many are affected by them.
... because the "many" to whom you refer believe in the efficacy of these "spells."
Also, I see something of a leap in logic in your statement here. I do tend to agree with the first part concerning "energy;" but it does not necessarily follow from that that "spells are real." Simon was powerless and impotent in the presence of the Apostles and Philip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibenon
Consider this. If you wanted to harm someone, would you tell them about it so that they would be on their guard? No. Same with spells. You don't inform them you are casting one on them, so you can capture them more easily. It's not in the power of suggestion. Most magik comes from demonic forces. Therefore by your "real deal" you are contradicting yourself.
~Paul
Almost all of the "spells" that I have heard of involve some sort of token being sent to the target. A chicken head on the doorstep in Santeria (Haiti, West Africa, etc). Even the Celts left jack-o-lanterns at their "victim's" door. Summoning fear is a primary catalyst in the whole process of intimidation.
I have even seen it in this current discussion. Those who question a particular "party line" are being assaulted with attempts at intimidation and fear. Statements like "You don't believe the Word of God!" and "You oppose God!" are hurled about as if they were the "new" incantations. People are being bullied into forming up in the "appropriate" queues and those who ask too many questions are derided and dismissed.
Typical behavior from the practitioners of "magick." I say, "bunk."
The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.
At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.
Randi is a former performing magician. He understands the emotional manipulation that is inherent in these acts and calls them out.
There has always been a modicum of social status available amongst Pentecostal/Apostolic people for the "reformed witch." Since so much of the Pentecostal "stage" (pulpit) performance relies upon many of the same cues, it's almost as if "tradesmen" of a shared "profession" are acknowledging one another over a "job well done."
See that video of A. A. Allen doing the "growing leg" trick on the "Charismatic Healings" thread. Compare that to anything you might see in Vegas from a "magical" pro. See also the performance of any experienced pastor during a "Saints Meeting" where folks have to be intimidated into following "the standards" and compare this to the behavior of Anton Lavey when he's being questioned. There truly is "Magick Afoot."
Anybody else going to see Harry Potter this weekend? I've been thinking of going to the IMAX version.
Randi is a former performing magician. He understands the emotional manipulation that is inherent in these acts and calls them out.
There has always been a modicum of social status available amongst Pentecostal/Apostolic people for the "reformed witch." Since so much of the Pentecostal "stage" (pulpit) performance relies upon many of the same cues, it's almost as if "tradesmen" of a shared "profession" are acknowledging one another over a "job well done."
See that video of A. A. Allen doing the "growing leg" trick on the "Charismatic Healings" thread. Compare that to anything you might see in Vegas from a "magical" pro. See also the performance of any experienced pastor during a "Saints Meeting" where folks have to be intimidated into following "the standards" and compare this to the behavior of Anton Lavey when he's being questioned. There truly is "Magick Afoot."
Anybody else going to see Harry Potter this weekend? I've been thinking of going to the IMAX version.
I have read and viewed videos from him for many years. I always knew he was a magician (who doesn't remember his guest appearance on Happy Days?) but I was introduced to his skeptics side when researching over-unity/free energy/perpetual motion machines.
He puts Christianity to the same standards as any other supernatural organization of belief system so you really do need to be strong in your faith when reading his newsletters or listening to his podcasts, but truth should always be able to stand to any questioning.
Randi is a former performing magician. He understands the emotional manipulation that is inherent in these acts and calls them out.
There has always been a modicum of social status available amongst Pentecostal/Apostolic people for the "reformed witch." Since so much of the Pentecostal "stage" (pulpit) performance relies upon many of the same cues, it's almost as if "tradesmen" of a shared "profession" are acknowledging one another over a "job well done."
See that video of A. A. Allen doing the "growing leg" trick on the "Charismatic Healings" thread. Compare that to anything you might see in Vegas from a "magical" pro. See also the performance of any experienced pastor during a "Saints Meeting" where folks have to be intimidated into following "the standards" and compare this to the behavior of Anton Lavey when he's being questioned. There truly is "Magick Afoot."
Anybody else going to see Harry Potter this weekend? I've been thinking of going to the IMAX version.
My favorite is the "who has a back problem. God says you are healed if you have faith....who was healed of back problems, raise your hand!"
Or the "call the dupe out in front of the entire congregation, pronounce healing over them, ask them in front of the entire congregation if they were healed" trick...very rarely does anyone say "Nope, didn't work", who wants to look like a faithless schmuck in front of everyone?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Sounds like they are related to quantum mechanics... maybe we should study them to understand things like Dark Matter more.
Our understanding of Quantum Mechanics suffers from the fact that it deals with forces and particles that are extremely discrete. Nevertheless, we can still see the results of the forces and their interaction.
The occult on the other hand, by definition is "hidden" from observation. The word "occult" means literally "hidden." For all of the ages of man there have been professed practitioners of the occult who have used this fact to deceive and to make merchandise of people (2 Peter 2:3).
In days of yore, even things that are considered "everyday science" today were handled by the practitioners of the occult. Chemistry and Alchemy are just one example. The name for ancient Egypt was Kemet. Anything that had to do with "Egypt" or Egyptian practices was called by the Arabs of the Middle Ages - "al Kemet." This became "Alchemy" in the European tongues and the science (after it became a science) shortened the name to Chemistry.
The fermentation of grape juice into wine was thought to involve a "magical" process. The fluid was observed to "come alive" of its own accord without anything being added to it. Of course, as Louis Pasteur demonstrated, something actually was "added" to the wine - tiny unseen yeast spores carried by the air or washed from the grape skins caused the fermentation to take place.
Because this yeast was unseen and unknown to ancient man, its actions were attributed to "magic." Even the Law which forbade the presence of "yeast" in the home during Passover could not account for the unseen spores carried about by the air, and so wine was not banned even though it contained yeast. Of banning this yeast would have required a sterile environment that most modern clean rooms are unable to attain. Hence, the Law ignored this yeast and simply didn't account for it. The process of fermentation was "occultic" until the 19th Century.
See nahkoe? I made a simple assertion and Mark and his kin leapt on me saying that I "didn't even believe the Word of God." Challenging the efficacy of "magick" is obviously a very tender nerve here.
Actually, since your position is opposite that written in Exodus....
and no, it's not really a tender nerve, I merely tire of the foolishness
that is being asserted.
That's okay though, your flavor of foolishness on the subject is somewhat
easier to stomach than those brethren who cower in fear of the local coven..
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Mark, with respect, I think you do use a sort of "magic" - a type that allows you to conjure up hallucinations alleging that I "continually encourage" you to use "magick." My simple challenge for you to "prove" your assertions could hardly be construed as "encouraging you continually" to revert to your past life of dependence upon whatever it was that you call "magick."
ROFL
So you are one of those who would, not continually.... only few times
over the course of a week actually....,
tell a former addict to show you how heroin affects him.
How..... nice.... and again, challenging someone to sin is not very
indicative of being close to God.
Quote:
Sorry bro. You came on this forum like a bull in a china shop without even taking time to read the forum rules, much less anything that I have posted. If you had taken the time you would have recognized how far out of bounds your silly and provocative assertions are. I or anyone else could, for example, flag this post of yours and an admin would most likely give you an infraction for your harsh and condemning tone. One of the long standing forum rules is that you don't belittle or condemn another person's standing or relationship with God because you disagree with their opinion.
By all means, feel free to contact the staff on this matter.
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And still, my original assertion that engendered your hostility still unassailed. Care to take a turn at answering it?
It has already been answered, more than once.
Your original assertion (that magik is not real) is trumped by both my
experience, and Much, Much more importantly, the Word of God.
Almost all of the "spells" that I have heard of involve some sort of token being sent to the target. A chicken head on the doorstep in Santeria (Haiti, West Africa, etc). Even the Celts left jack-o-lanterns at their "victim's" door. Summoning fear is a primary catalyst in the whole process of intimidation.
lol
and yet, none of the spellwork that I did involved such a thing...
not once.
Couple of other items for you to ponder since you say magik doesn't work
unless the one being cast upon believes in it.
How do animals believe in it?
How do storms believe in it?
How do inanimate objects believe in it?
Actually, since your position is opposite that written in Exodus....
and no, it's not really a tender nerve, I merely tire of the foolishness
that is being asserted.
That's okay though, your flavor of foolishness on the subject is somewhat
easier to stomach than those brethren who cower in fear of the local coven..
ROFL
So you are one of those who would, not continually.... only few times
over the course of a week actually....,
tell a former addict to show you how heroin affects him.
How..... nice.... and again, challenging someone to sin is not very
indicative of being close to God.
Bizarre. Your make-believe world really leads you into some serious dishonesty. You would benefit a great deal from acknowledging the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flutecrafter
By all means, feel free to contact the staff on this matter.
It has already been answered, more than once. Your original assertion (that magik is not real) is trumped by both my
experience, and Much, Much more importantly, the Word of God.
Mark
Again you lie. Go back and read my "original assertion."
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
Thus, the whole thing requires three components:
1) It is required that the "witch" perform the incantation or ritual, and
2) It is required that the object of the bewitchment know about the curse, and
3) The person being "bewitched" MUST believe that it is efficacious.
Interestingly, you might obtain the desired effect if you just have #2 and #3 in place without even having #1 take place.
Everyone who has read this thread (except you & your sock puppet) has wondered why you continue this lie. I'm left to wonder: Do the practitioners of make-believe religious rituals frame everything in the real world as a "lie?"
Galileo "lied" when he said the earth revolved around the sun. Giordano Bruno "lied" when he said that the stars in the sky were distant "suns." Michael Servetus "lied" when he said that Jesus Christ was "the Son of the Eternal God" and NOT the "Eternal Son of God."
For years on this forum I have said that there are elements of "magic" that are real and that "spirits" can influence people. However, my original assertion and the reasonable implications that can be drawn from it still stand - unanswered and really, unchallenged so far.
No one can put a "spell" or "hex" on another person without the targeted person's belief that such a "spell" or "hex" is efficacious. It just doesn't work that way.
Folks, you may experience all sorts of strange happenings in your life. There are somethings that I, "the big scary skeptic," have experienced that I found to be inexplicable from a purely materialistic standpoint. But, no other human being has the power to "put the whammy" on me or anyone else. They may rob me, injure me or otherwise cause me pain and grief; but they have no "spiritual power" over me - or YOU!
Therefore by your "real deal" you are contradicting yourself. 
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