I Love the UPCI

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I agree that I was not victimized by "the system". I reject the notion that "the system" is ungodly or evil or victimizing. That is your issue and those of you who make a lifestyle out of hand wringing and shouting about how evil the system is, do neither yourselves nor anyone else any favors.

Most of that “system” stuff is your own inability to simply be who you are and walk away from what you have changed your mind about.

I do realize that is a hard thing to do. While I will not get into any detail, in my first post, I point out that while I am pretty much on board with UPCI DOCTRINE I am not so on board with a lot of its application. That has led to a good deal of looking at me and making big boy decisions. Where I have chosen to apply different standards (how’s that for a pun?), I have owned my own actions. There are those who don’t approve. I don’t care. They may talk about me (I know they have). I still do not care.

There is no “system” problem. There are only reactions to the system. You own your own reactions bro. Regardless of what you may think, the system has done nothing. There may be some who like the system that become an issue for you, (please refer back to my linked story). But the system is nothing more than a framework that existed before you were born.

It is no different than having a job. If you worked for some company that one day you wake up and decide you don’t like what they are doing, you can’t show up and start yelling at everybody about how awful they are. You’re going to lose that job if you do. The system isn’t the issue. YOU are. When you walk away, don’t expect those who still love their jobs to choose you over the job they love. You aren’t putting bread on their table.

The same with the “system” that is the UPCI. The day you wake up and realize they are a bunch of Godless heathens, is not the day the UPCI members decide you are their prophet. You are the one who changed. You cannot and should not expect them to like your change, agree with your change or act like you have not changed.

I think this is the real heart of my issue with so many on AFF. Nobody wants to own their own actions. It’s the “System’s” fault. It is the UPCI’s fault. Some just blast away. Others work really hard at dismantling every doctrine taught by the org in Quixotic fashion. Whatever. Its tiring. And silly. Be who you are and have the guts to allow others to do the same.

Hear! Hear!!!

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I agree that I was not victimized by "the system". I reject the notion that "the system" is ungodly or evil or victimizing. That is your issue and those of you who make a lifestyle out of hand wringing and shouting about how evil the system is, do neither yourselves nor anyone else any favors.

Most of that “system” stuff is your own inability to simply be who you are and walk away from what you have changed your mind about.

I do realize that is a hard thing to do. While I will not get into any detail, in my first post, I point out that while I am pretty much on board with UPCI DOCTRINE I am not so on board with a lot of its application. That has led to a good deal of looking at me and making big boy decisions. Where I have chosen to apply different standards (how’s that for a pun?), I have owned my own actions. There are those who don’t approve. I don’t care. They may talk about me (I know they have). I still do not care.

There is no “system” problem. There are only reactions to the system. You own your own reactions bro. Regardless of what you may think, the system has done nothing. There may be some who like the system that become an issue for you, (please refer back to my linked story). But the system is nothing more than a framework that existed before you were born.

It is no different than having a job. If you worked for some company that one day you wake up and decide you don’t like what they are doing, you can’t show up and start yelling at everybody about how awful they are. You’re going to lose that job if you do. The system isn’t the issue. YOU are. When you walk away, don’t expect those who still love their jobs to choose you over the job they love. You aren’t putting bread on their table.

The same with the “system” that is the UPCI. The day you wake up and realize they are a bunch of Godless heathens, is not the day the UPCI members decide you are their prophet. You are the one who changed. You cannot and should not expect them to like your change, agree with your change or act like you have not changed.

I think this is the real heart of my issue with so many on AFF. Nobody wants to own their own actions. It’s the “System’s” fault. It is the UPCI’s fault. Some just blast away. Others work really hard at dismantling every doctrine taught by the org in Quixotic fashion. Whatever. Its tiring. And silly. Be who you are and have the guts to allow others to do the same.

You have no idea.

Maybe you're better off in your fairy tale world.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deadeye

I understand this view completely....it is this attitude and constant sniping at not only the UPC but any person or group perceived as holding traditional views...that has driven so many great members off of this forum.
After a while they just got sick of this garbage.
I very seldom post and when I do i get dogpiled on...called names and ridiculed....

Of course I give it back...and hand out some of my own so I really dont have any place to complain....

However the extreme bias that is so prevalent on here does get tiresome.

Actually you usually dish it out first, then whine about the reactions you get and leave in a huff....like a lot of others have. There is a lot of bias here but percentage wise it only went up because the cons decided to leave and not provide a counter balance

[Sarah]

We've been members of the UPCI for a long, long time.....and it's been nothing but good for us. Perfect? Far from it. I don't know of anything in my life that's perfect!

I'm especially thankful for the opportunity the UPCI has given my children....and now my grandchildren. Camps, Bible Quizzing, retreats, even general conferences.....they partook and enjoyed it all. I owe the UPCI a lot....And I thank the Lord for it!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Exactly correct! John HIMSELF took a shot at the UPC in his opening diatribe. But somehow none of us can. That's very inconsistent and completely unfair.

I recently sat with a young man who poured his heart out about the things that he's experienced through his lifetime within the circles of the UPC, and it's the stuff that happens, not just in isolated places, but things that only take place in hard-line pentecostal churches. My goodness, the damage that's been done to him is unthinkable, and it was from THE SYSTEM, not some out-of-control preacher. We're talking District Boards, here.

So maybe you'd prefer we all be silent about the heartache and abuse that happens because of THE SYSTEM, but somebody needs to say something!!!

But somehow it's ok if you (John) throw in your dig about not agreeing with the doctrine, but then WE'RE the ones that are wrong. The game you're playing isn't fair.

All that being said, thank you for the times you've worked tirelessly to restore the forum when it's been broken. You have my applause for that.

John didn't take a shot. He merely pointed out the UPC would not take him nor would he want to. That's probably due to doctrinal differences.

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

John didn't take a shot. He merely pointed out the UPC would not take him nor would he want to. That's probably due to doctrinal differences.

Yes he did. It's fairly subversive, fairly subtle, but he did. He is refusing to take part with the UPC while proclaiming his glowing adoration of it. You can't have it both ways. Jesus said it's either one way or the other, right? "For me or against me."

I happen to be comfortable enough in my own skin to openly admit, I'm against it. John wants to sugarcoat it. "I love you but I want nothing to do with you." Nuh uh.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Yes he did. It's fairly subversive, fairly subtle, but he did. He is refusing to take part with the UPC while proclaiming his glowing adoration of it. You can't have it both ways. Jesus said it's either one way or the other, right? "For me or against me."

I happen to be comfortable enough in my own skin to openly admit, I'm against it. John wants to sugarcoat it. "I love you but I want nothing to do with you." Nuh uh.

Refusing to take part in an organization while not blasting it like everyone else is not taking a shot at the UPC. There is no both ways here. He doesn't attack the UPC while he also would not be a member. So using the reverse logic if I would never be a member of any organization I spend my time blasting those organizations? Sorry that just does not make sense. I didn't see him blasting the UPC in his opening post. He simply pointed out he would not be able to be UPC. He never said why. He never said the UPC was bad. He just said he could not be UPC...I could not be Mormon, but that's not taking a shot at them.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Sarah

We've been members of the UPCI for a long, long time.....and it's been nothing but good for us. Perfect? Far from it. I don't know of anything in my life that's perfect!

I'm especially thankful for the opportunity the UPCI has given my children....and now my grandchildren. Camps, Bible Quizzing, retreats, even general conferences.....they partook and enjoyed it all. I owe the UPCI a lot....And I thank the Lord for it!

Sarah, I understand your passion. I, too, have fond memories of my experience in the UPCI.

That being said, we are still just another Religion. We claim that those who don't believe like us are going to burn in Hell for Eternity. This is "Old School" UPCI doctrine. If you're not Born Again according to our interpretation of John 3:5-8, you're lost forever.

If you're not baptized in the "Name", you may as well pack your bags and count on living with the Devil into the eons of nothingness. And all you ladies who cut your hair, the road to damnation is paved with those curly locks you’ve shorn in rebellion.

Let's not forget those EVIL people who have a TV. Many in the UPC claim, you can't have a TV and be saved.

Also, we must reiterate that many in this movement have had horrible experiences, from divorce, adultery, child abuse, and numerous other tribulations, which have marred our "Religion".

I have a personal ministerial friend who is very well known in the UPCI. He found out that his 2 sons had been molested by his assistant pastor. Imagine the confusion, distrust, and broken confidence in this church. It’s very hard to move on from this kind of Religious Violence. In my 32 years of UPCI exposure, the stories in my Church experience are harrowing. One night my daughter had one of the girls from church spend the night at our home. She confessed to my daughter she was being molested by her father, a Sunday School Teacher and platform leader in our church. All said and done, he went to prison because my daughter came forward with the truth. The stress on our family over this ordeal is still with us today, and this happened 15 years ago.

It's way too easy to candy cote our Faith with big hair do's, nice suits, and dancing a jig at General Conference. If we don't address the secret sins, our hypocrisy will only devour us further into denial. It’s way too easy to go to Church and give everyone an impression, and leave emotionally intoxicated. I have an Evangelist friend who was approached by an Apostolic Church member at a job site where his son was working. This “Saint” proceeds to start a fight, and fists start flying. This Evangelist had to lay this guy out to protect his son who was being attacked, because of a family conflict. At Church that night, this man was running the aisles like nothing happened.

I think the bottom line, Sarah, is that we are no better than anyone else. We are all wretched, blind, and naked in God’s sight, but our movement gives its constituents the idea that we are above everyone else in Doctrine, holiness, and clean living, and this is becoming our downfall because we are not being honest about who we really are.

When Bro McCary committed suicide, this was brushed under the carpet, and you never hear anything about it. We slay the wrong giants when we do this, and this Pentecostal FLUFF is nothing more than a shell, covering our own evils and shortcomings that every Faith has.

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Refusing to take part in an organization while not blasting it like everyone else is not taking a shot at the UPC. There is no both ways here. He doesn't attack the UPC while he also would not be a member. So using the reverse logic if I would never be a member of any organization I spend my time blasting those organizations? Sorry that just does not make sense. I didn't see him blasting the UPC in his opening post. He simply pointed out he would not be able to be UPC. He never said why. He never said the UPC was bad. He just said he could not be UPC...I could not be Mormon, but that's not taking a shot at them.

AH HA!!!! THIS is the point I was hoping to get to but I needed someone to say it before I could make the point. Thank you, Praxeas, for setting me up for the spike.

This gets SOOO old!!! If any of us have the audacity, the unmitigated gall, the nerve to call out the UPC for its abuses, heavy-handedness, political gimmickry, doctrinal heresies, or acrimonious dealings with individuals or groups, we get labeled "Bitter", "Angry", "Whiners", and the list goes on forever.

We have refused to be a part of THE SYSTEM. The only difference between us and John A. is, we have the guts to say "Why"!!!

It's interesting that SO many hold up Martin Luther as a patriarch, a bold confronter, a pioneer and a revolutionary. But us? If we DARE speak out about the untouchable UPC? We're "Bitter", "Blasting it", blah, blah, blah.

Jesus did it. Was he a bad buy too? Look at what he called the religious system of His day. If I came on here and said what he said, I'd get infracted for name calling!

John gets tired of the UPC being criticized. I, on the other hand, as well as many others, get TIRED of you people crying about some of us pointing out the TRUTH.

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I agree that I was not victimized by "the system". I reject the notion that "the system" is ungodly or evil or victimizing. That is your issue and those of you who make a lifestyle out of hand wringing and shouting about how evil the system is, do neither yourselves nor anyone else any favors.

Most of that “system” stuff is your own inability to simply be who you are and walk away from what you have changed your mind about.

I do realize that is a hard thing to do. While I will not get into any detail, in my first post, I point out that while I am pretty much on board with UPCI DOCTRINE I am not so on board with a lot of its application. That has led to a good deal of looking at me and making big boy decisions. Where I have chosen to apply different standards (how’s that for a pun?), I have owned my own actions. There are those who don’t approve. I don’t care. They may talk about me (I know they have). I still do not care.

There is no “system” problem. There are only reactions to the system. You own your own reactions bro. Regardless of what you may think, the system has done nothing. There may be some who like the system that become an issue for you, (please refer back to my linked story). But the system is nothing more than a framework that existed before you were born.

It is no different than having a job. If you worked for some company that one day you wake up and decide you don’t like what they are doing, you can’t show up and start yelling at everybody about how awful they are. You’re going to lose that job if you do. The system isn’t the issue. YOU are. When you walk away, don’t expect those who still love their jobs to choose you over the job they love. You aren’t putting bread on their table.

The same with the “system” that is the UPCI. The day you wake up and realize they are a bunch of Godless heathens, is not the day the UPCI members decide you are their prophet. You are the one who changed. You cannot and should not expect them to like your change, agree with your change or act like you have not changed.

I think this is the real heart of my issue with so many on AFF. Nobody wants to own their own actions. It’s the “System’s” fault. It is the UPCI’s fault. Some just blast away. Others work really hard at dismantling every doctrine taught by the org in Quixotic fashion. Whatever. Its tiring. And silly. Be who you are and have the guts to allow others to do the same.

Good post.