God does not forgive, because he never condemned.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Okay, that helps me understand where you are coming from. The logic required, I think, in dealing with the statement you proposed for opinion is to recognize that it demands we think the ONLY reason God forgives is because we were condemned by Him. There may be other reasons, but the bible never said God forgives because He condemned us. We do know He forgives though. Are there other possibilities that demand forgiveness from God? So the whole statement is not logical to begin with, I think.

God bless!

But consider the alternative to getting God's forgiveness. If He doesn't forgive you (for whatever reason), what then? If God chooses to forgive or not to forgive, what effect does it have? If His forgiving doesn't remove the condemnation that He put on is in the first place, what exactly does it remove? The condemnation we put upon ourselves? That doesn't make much sense, either, IMO.

[theglory7]

Good point Timmy,

blume, I'm watching your series on Israel, what do you think about this. The Israeli embassy getting attacked in Turkey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87n4v...layer_embedded

[SteppingStone]

Here's another example:

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

God has laid out all the foundations of life and death, we either choose blessings or cursings..

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

But consider the alternative to getting God's forgiveness. If He doesn't forgive you (for whatever reason), what then? If God chooses to forgive or not to forgive, what effect does it have? If His forgiving doesn't remove the condemnation that He put on is in the first place, what exactly does it remove? The condemnation we put upon ourselves? That doesn't make much sense, either, IMO.

We have to assume the bible did not tell us the truth when it says God forgives to think anything like that. So your question is moot in my mind.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We have to assume the bible did not tell us the truth when it says God forgives to think anything like that. So your question is moot in my mind.

I wasn't saying He doesn't forgive. I was asking... well, I asked what I asked. Reread?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

I wasn't saying He doesn't forgive. I was asking... well, I asked what I asked. Reread?

I must still be missing what you are asking. Can you rephrase it?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I must still be missing what you are asking. Can you rephrase it?

Sure, no problem. This is from the point of view of you guys -- believers.

You talk about God's forgiveness. I think you believe that everyone should do whatever it takes to get God's forgiveness, because there are dire consequences if you don't. So far, so good?

Now, back to post 1 of this thread. Theglory7 posted an assertion: God does not forgive, because he never condemned. Many of the replies, understandably, pointed out that the Bible says God does forgive, so whatchoo talkin' 'bout, 7? (Apologies to Gary Coleman, rest in peace. )

So, what I am asking is more directly related to 7's assertion (whether it is true or not): if God doesn't condemn us, what exactly is He forgiving (when He forgives)? If we condemn ourselves (as mentioned in a post or two), how can another party (even if it is God Himself!) remove that condemnation by "forgiving" us? Tying in with my other post about the meaning of "forgive", aren't we the ones that have the ability to remove the condemnation that we put upon ourselves?

[SteppingStone]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Sure, no problem. This is from the point of view of you guys -- believers.

You talk about God's forgiveness. I think you believe that everyone should do whatever it takes to get God's forgiveness, because there are dire consequences if you don't. So far, so good?

Now, back to post 1 of this thread. Theglory7 posted an assertion: God does not forgive, because he never condemned. Many of the replies, understandably, pointed out that the Bible says God does forgive, so whatchoo talkin' 'bout, 7? (Apologies to Gary Coleman, rest in peace. )

So, what I am asking is more directly related to 7's assertion (whether it is true or not): if God doesn't condemn us, what exactly is He forgiving (when He forgives)? If we condemn ourselves (as mentioned in a post or two), how can another party (even if it is God Himself!) remove that condemnation by "forgiving" us? Tying in with my other post about the meaning of "forgive", aren't we the ones that have the ability to remove the condemnation that we put upon ourselves?

Adam disobediently partook of that spiritual knowledge of, "Good and Evil," and by doing so ushered in death. He chose a curse. God reconciled the error by fulfilling the law of said curse by sending His son, the lamb of God. He paid the price for us and recreated a spiritual habitation for us in the power of His resurrection. He conquered death so that we could have life again, but we chose death from the beginning.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Sure, no problem. This is from the point of view of you guys -- believers.

Make sure you put that disclaimer out there, huh?

You talk about God's forgiveness. I think you believe that everyone should do whatever it takes to get God's forgiveness, because there are dire consequences if you don't. So far, so good?

Amen.

Now, back to post 1 of this thread. Theglory7 posted an assertion: God does not forgive, because he never condemned. Many of the replies, understandably, pointed out that the Bible says God does forgive, so whatchoo talkin' 'bout, 7? (Apologies to Gary Coleman, rest in peace. )

So, what I am asking is more directly related to 7's assertion (whether it is true or not): if God doesn't condemn us, what exactly is He forgiving (when He forgives)? If we condemn ourselves (as mentioned in a post or two), how can another party (even if it is God Himself!) remove that condemnation by "forgiving" us? Tying in with my other post about the meaning of "forgive", aren't we the ones that have the ability to remove the condemnation that we put upon ourselves?

I initially said that God did indeed condemn man, and we seek His forgiveness. Someone else said we condemn ourselves to fall under his condemnation, and He forgives.

Maybe we should say God condemns SIN. That is why people say God loves the sinner but hates the sin.

Whatever the case, God is involved in condemnation, whether it is the sin or the sinner.

But there is a condemnation we do indeed put upon ourselves. Once God forgives, many still cannot get away from condemnation. In fact, 1 John 4 mentions that if our hearts condemn us, God is greater and knows all things. He said this because He knows we are not condemned and should not feel condemned when forgiven, but our stupid hearts may condemn ourselves anyway.

In fact I am preaching about this later today... God forgives us and sets us free from the devil's influence, but we prop the devil back up again like the Philistines re-erected Dagon after the idol fell down in a position of prostrate worship before the Ark of the covenant, and made themselves servants to a defeated and powerless idol again. We think we HAVE TO SIN and that we are no-good and inadequate. We look at our own abilities and forget God is with us. Sometimes we recall our pasts that were forgiven and run ourselves down as a result.

It takes faith to believe that the work of the cross actually moved God to FORGIVE US. Although JESUS SUFFERED due to OUR INIQUITY, we still think we have to suffer. We still think we're no-good. Jesus took that suffering we deserved. And Isaiah 53, that speaks of this, ends with a powerful revelation for self-condemned believers to learn. GOD IS SATISFIED WITH THE suffering of Christ that paid for our iniquities, so that we need not think we have to still pay for them in our self-condemning unbelief.

Isaiah 53:11 KJV He [GOD] shall see of the travail of his soul [CHRIST'S], and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Condemnation in a believer is often merely resultant from ignorance of the fact that that God has forgiven and does not condemn the believer.

So we remove self-condemnation, that is actually a lie, by having faith that it is true when the Lord said Christ's suffering satisfied the wrath of God against our sin. And He no longer holds an iota of wrath towards us.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Sure, no problem. This is from the point of view of you guys -- believers.

You talk about God's forgiveness. I think you believe that everyone should do whatever it takes to get God's forgiveness, because there are dire consequences if you don't. So far, so good?

Now, back to post 1 of this thread. Theglory7 posted an assertion: God does not forgive, because he never condemned. Many of the replies, understandably, pointed out that the Bible says God does forgive, so whatchoo talkin' 'bout, 7? (Apologies to Gary Coleman, rest in peace. )

So, what I am asking is more directly related to 7's assertion (whether it is true or not): if God doesn't condemn us, what exactly is He forgiving (when He forgives)? If we condemn ourselves (as mentioned in a post or two), how can another party (even if it is God Himself!) remove that condemnation by "forgiving" us? Tying in with my other post about the meaning of "forgive", aren't we the ones that have the ability to remove the condemnation that we put upon ourselves?

(Personally I can't think of a better way to describe God sending people to hell than the word condemn).

Besides that, everything else has to do with direct and indirect implication.

God directly condemns those who sin to hell.
Men indirectly condemn themselves to hell by sinning.

Men's remedy for sin is repentance. Repentance allows a man to stop indirectly condemning himself to hell (because repentance stops sin). Repentance takes care of our indirect present and future condemnations (our present and future sins). So what of our past sins? Well, the only remedy for our past sins is for God to waive the judgment of condemning us to hell. In fact, God waiving a judgment is exactly what it means for God to forgive. So, with these two things, repentance and God's waiving of judgment (God's forgiveness), we have taken care of all the reasons that God would condemn us to hell. We have also taken care of all the reasons that we could further indirectly condemn ourselves to hell.