You seem to be tying the Bible's clarity with the Bible's accuracy. It's true, therefore it is clear. Is that what you are saying?
If the existence of disagreements is not proof that it is unclear, what explains the disagreements? Take an issue about which there is a dispute. If there are, say, two versions of a doctrine (most have way more than two, I think!), and if the truth is clear, what does that say about the side who holds to the wrong view? Are they dishonest? Some have said as much, here on AFF. They say if you are honest in your search, the Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth.
Note bolded: Yes! Absolutely! Either the Bible is completely accurate or its not...... it really is that simple. I believe it to be accurate.
The existence of disagreements among man regarding any of its contents does not make the Bible "unclear," only that men disagree concerning the things which it asserts as truth. You and I could dispute just about everything that the Bible asserts as truth, but does that make the Bible wrong? Of course not! It simply means that either you or I have mis-interpreted that which it asserts as truth.
Yes, it is possible for one to be "sincere" in the things which they have accepted and embraced as truth, but by the same token this does not imply that their "sincerity" establishes the truth about a particular matter. For instance, I completely disagree with the things which the Jehovah Witnesses come to my door and endeavor to have me accept as truth, but this does not mean that I entertain doubts regarding their "sincerity" of what causes them to believe as they do. It simply means that we are in "disagreement," and not that the Bible is either unclear or in error.
Great post! But I do ask, with open and honest heart, how do you define the "One True Church?" There are so many different Oneness Pentecostal Churches. The UPCI, in many cases, proclaims itself as the One True Church. Then there is the ALJC (oneness), The Tulsa group, (don't remember their call letters) they are oneness. And that's just a few of the many organizations. There are independent oneness groups all across the country more strict than the UPCI in many cases. ??? One True Church where art thou? ???? I haven't even gotten to the "quote" Trinity "unquote" groups that the oneness agree have the Holy Ghost. Does God really give them His Holy Ghost, (and I believe He does) if they are not a part of the One True Church?
Great questions!
Is the UPCI the "One True Church?" Of course not! The UPCI is a man-made ministerial organization which just happens to embrace certain Scriptural teachings which were first delivered to lost humanity through the words of the chosen apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ (ditto for the ALJC, The Tulsa Group, and all others which also hold such beliefs). The "One True Church" is that Church which finds its roots in the book of Acts, and began on that first day of Pentecost following the bodily ascension of our Lord to His throne located in the heavens. Whatever "name" one chooses to refer to it matters not, only that its teachings "mirrors" those which are contained in the elementary "principles of the doctrine of Christ," as found recorded in Hebrews 6:1-3.
And yes, God will give the baptism of the Holy Ghost to anyone, even those who are not a part of the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal groups which you've noted. God gives His Spirit to those whose faith is sufficient to receive it, and it is not based upon one being a member of a particular religious organization. In fact, I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost while still an active member of a well known Trinitarian church, and only became a member of the UPCI after coming to an understanding of it teachings concerning water baptism for the remission of sins (something which differed significantly from my former religious denomination). But this does not imply that I am in complete agreement with every aspect of its teachings either, for I have discovered that there are some things which it publishes as truth which are anything but that!
Is the UPCI the "One True Church?" Of course not! The UPCI is a man-made ministerial organization which just happens to embrace certain Scriptural teachings which were first delivered to lost humanity through the words of the chosen apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ (ditto for the ALJC, The Tulsa Group, and all others which also hold such beliefs). The "One True Church" is that Church which finds its roots in the book of Acts, and began on that first day of Pentecost following the bodily ascension of our Lord to His throne located in the heavens. Whatever "name" one chooses to refer to it matters not, only that its teachings "mirrors" those which are contained in the elementary "principles of the doctrine of Christ," as found recorded in Hebrews 6:1-3.
And yes, God will give the baptism of the Holy Ghost to anyone, even those who are not a part of the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal groups which you've noted. God gives His Spirit to those whose faith is sufficient to receive it, and it is not based upon one being a member of a particular religious organization. In fact, I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost while still an active member of a well known Trinitarian church, and only became a member of the UPCI after coming to an understanding of it teachings concerning water baptism for the remission of sins (something which differed significantly from my former religious denomination). But this does not imply that I am in complete agreement with every aspect of its teachings either, for I have discovered that there are some things which it publishes as truth which are anything but that!
So? Are you saying and do you think that there is not a select organization that is The One True Church. But, rather is made up of people from many, many varied groups. Now I know the next answer is yes, those who embrace the truth. But who decides what is truth, for you have just said there are things in the UPCI that you consider anything but the truth?
I think it would be safe to say that it is impossible for anyone to make up a list of membership in the One True Church except God! If you did, a conference would have to be called to check out all the doctrines and then who would decide what doctrines will fly and what will not fly.
Been Thinkin
__________________
"From the time you're born, 'til you ride in the hearse, there ain't nothing bad that couldn't be worse!"
LIFE: Some days you're the dog and some days you're the hydrant!
I have ... Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia! The fear of long words.
"Prediction is very hard, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra
"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave in reflection." - Thomas Paine
Note bolded: Yes! Absolutely! Either the Bible is completely accurate or its not...... it really is that simple. I believe it to be accurate.
The existence of disagreements among man regarding any of its contents does not make the Bible "unclear," only that men disagree concerning the things which it asserts as truth. You and I could dispute just about everything that the Bible asserts as truth, but does that make the Bible wrong? Of course not! It simply means that either you or I have mis-interpreted that which it asserts as truth.
Yes, it is possible for one to be "sincere" in the things which they have accepted and embraced as truth, but by the same token this does not imply that their "sincerity" establishes the truth about a particular matter. For instance, I completely disagree with the things which the Jehovah Witnesses come to my door and endeavor to have me accept as truth, but this does not mean that I entertain doubts regarding their "sincerity" of what causes them to believe as they do. It simply means that we are in "disagreement," and not that the Bible is either unclear or in error.
I think you and I are using different meanings of the word "clear"!
To me, something is clear if everyone who reads it understands just what was meant by the writer. Two people will not get two different things out of it.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
So? Are you saying and do you think that there is not a select organization that is The One True Church. But, rather is made up of people from many, many varied groups. Now I know the next answer is yes, those who embrace the truth. But who decides what is truth, for you have just said there are things in the UPCI that you consider anything but the truth?
I think it would be safe to say that it is impossible for anyone to make up a list of membership in the One True Church except God! If you did, a conference would have to be called to check out all the doctrines and then who would decide what doctrines will fly and what will not fly.
So? Are you saying and do you think that there is not a select organization that is The One True Church. But, rather is made up of people from many, many varied groups. Now I know the next answer is yes, those who embrace the truth. But who decides what is truth, for you have just said there are things in the UPCI that you consider anything but the truth?
That is correct! I am not saying, nor do I suggest, that there exists a “select organization” which can be classified as being the “One True Church.” Why? Well, for starters, the “One True Church” is not, in and of itself, an organization, rather it is a God ordained institution which exists apart from any type of entity which imperfect mortal man might devise. And yes, membership in the “One True Church” is comprised of only those who embrace the truth.
Regarding the question of “who decides what is truth,” if you will go back and read again my previous comments I believe you will discover that I noted the doctrinal teachings of the “One True Church” consists of those things which constitute the fundamental (i.e., elementary) “principles of the doctrine of Christ.” (see Hebrews 6:1-3) These teachings contain the following elements: (Indeed, these are the only doctrines which “will fly.”)
1. Faith towards God
2. Repentance from dead works
3. Baptisms (note the plurality of this word; signifying both water and Spirit)
4. Laying on of hands
5. Resurrection of the dead
6. Eternal judgment
In accordance with the unique, distinctive esoteric elements which comprise each of these six (6) principles of the things which Christ Jesus proclaimed and instructed His chosen apostles to teach you and I, then every teaching of the “One True Church” must conform to them. Anything that is accepted, embraced, or published as truth which does not encompass one of these fundamental principles, tends to serve as the means which will ultimately fosters “divisions” and disunity among its members.
I think it would be safe to say that it is impossible for anyone to make up a list of membership in the One True Church except God!
I agree that only God does truly know the “list of membership in the One True Church.” This is not to say that it is impossible for one to know whether or not they are one of those members, for membership in “the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood” (Acts 20:19) is attained by obedience to the instructions which were first given by the apostle Peter, in response to a question tendered by a group of Jews on that 1st day of Pentecost following our Lord’s bodily ascension to His throne located in the heavens (see Acts 2:38) - “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
BTW, “membership in the One True Church” is not restricted only to those who claim to be a member of the UPCI, ALJC, PAW, WPF, or any other man-made ministerial organization, for no such entities are ever mentioned anywhere in the Bible..... none but that “Church” which our Lord Jesus Christ said its foundation would be based exclusively upon the revelation of His true identity - “He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:15-18)
I hope that this is sufficient to assist you to better understand my viewpoint concerning this matter. If not, please inform me should you desire further explanation and I will attempt to provide it for you.
I think it would be safe to say that it is impossible for anyone to make up a list of membership in the One True Church except God!
I agree that only God does truly know the “list of membership in the One True Church.” This is not to say that it is impossible for one to know whether or not they are one of those members, . . .
Not impossible, perhaps. But some will think they are, but aren't. You list some of the requirements. This is your understanding of them (which probably has changed over the years, and may change again, as you might admit! ). If you have it right (or will some day have it right), you're fine. Trouble is, you can't know if and when it's right, with 100% certainty. Those who will cry "Lord, Lord" will have thought they got it right.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Not impossible, perhaps. But some will think they are, but aren't. You list some of the requirements. This is your understanding of them (which probably has changed over the years, and may change again, as you might admit! ). If you have it right (or will some day have it right), you're fine. Trouble is, you can't know if and when it's right, with 100% certainty. Those who will cry "Lord, Lord" will have thought they got it right.
Do you think Paul, Peter, and the other apostles believed themselves to have gotten it right? If so, then why can't you or I? Are we any different than they? I think not, for God is not a respector of persons, right? If God gave them the assurance that the things which they embraced as truth were correct, then why would He not do so for you or I? The only reason why this might not be possible is simply because we don't believe it to be so.
No, I entertain no doubts that the things which I now hold to be the truth regarding the elementary principles of the teachings of Christ shall ever change. Why? Because I possess that same Spirit which all of the apostles also held, and it is He who promised to "lead and guide into ALL truth."
Yes, there will be "many" who will appear at the judgment and claim that they had it all right, but there discover, and this to their astonishment, that they did not. But why wait until then? To suggest that it is not possible in this life (that is to say, before death) that one can know with 100% assurance that their beliefs are true and proper, is to suggest that God somehow takes delight in keeping one doubting until judgment day. If such were true then it is referring to beliefs which are absolutely foreign to me.
Do you think Paul, Peter, and the other apostles believed themselves to have gotten it right? If so, then why can't you or I? Are we any different than they? I think not, for God is not a respector of persons, right?
That's what the Bible says. But look at the many testimonies where God reaches down to certain individuals in their darkest time -- perhaps on the brink of suicide, perhaps at the bedside of a child with a terminal illness -- and work a great miracle. Sometimes, say the testimonies, their faith was ebbing. Sometimes, and yes I have heard examples of this, they weren't even believers at the time! And yet, for each one of these stories, there are probably many thousands of cases where God (apparently) lets the tragedy go ahead, unabated. And in many of those cases, it is a believer, and their faith is strong! Children die, when parents hold on to their faith and even withhold medical treatment. Say what you will about those parents' wisdom, but you can't fault their faith.
The only way to believe "God is not a respecter of persons" is to ignore the real world, and believe the Bible because you decide you must.
Quote:
If God gave them the assurance that the things which they embraced as truth were correct, then why would He not do so for you or I? The only reason why this might not be possible is simply because we don't believe it to be so.
No, I entertain no doubts that the things which I now hold to be the truth regarding the elementary principles of the teachings of Christ shall ever change. Why? Because I possess that same Spirit which all of the apostles also held, and it is He who promised to "lead and guide into ALL truth."
Yes, there will be "many" who will appear at the judgment and claim that they had it all right, but there discover, and this to their astonishment, that they did not. But why wait until then? To suggest that it is not possible in this life (that is to say, before death) that one can know with 100% assurance that their beliefs are true and proper, is to suggest that God somehow takes delight in keeping one doubting until judgment day. If such were true then it is referring to beliefs which are absolutely foreign to me.
And yet there it is. There will be people who think they got it, but didn't. Would any of them say, here and now in this life, that they are not 100% certain? Sure, some will. But I bet most will not. Many AFFers, in fact, admit they are not sure: http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=20984. Are absolutely none of the 100% sure folks wrong?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I suspect that Ananias and Sapphira thought they got it right, too.
Oh, but they did, my friend. Their problem happened to be that after they had gotten it right, they were then guilty of committing the ONLY sin for which there is, nor ever shall be forgiveness - blasphemy against the Holy Ghost!
). If you have it right (or will some day have it right), you're fine. Trouble is, you can't know if and when it's right, with 100% certainty. Those who will cry "Lord, Lord" will have thought they got it right.
Linear Mode
