What is Adultery?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by U376977

I'm sorry, I thought I had made that clear. This "minister" committed adultery with wife #1 and had an affair. Continued the relationship with the new hottie. "Repented" for the adultery and eventually divorced wife #1, and married the new hottie, who became wife #2.
Now, after about 1 1/2 years, into the marriage with wife #2 he is being brought out of "restoration" by his leadership and allowed to minister in a co-pastor role at one of the biggest churches in this sect of christianity.

My thinking is that he has not even repented, and is much less qualified to be a minister. He is a reproach and a joke to everyone except the gullible church people who have swallowed the pill of "God will forgive" you and "he just made a mistake!"

These are quotes I have heard in the last week!!

IMO he should be selling cars and not intruding back into a pulpit.....If he repented he'd never had stayed with the new hottie.

But what does the scriptures say?

Are you talking about TB?

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Sam

Are you talking about TB?

Boy am I glad my initials are BT and not TB!

Been Thinkin

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well, you added a good number of circumstances to simply "falling" (if it could ever be simple). I guess I would ask this question...if the above story took place on an unchurched individual, and he then were saved, would he ever be allowed to enter the ministry? If the answer is, "Yes", I guess we would need to ask if the same grace that applies to him also applies to the man you mentioned.

I was using the circumstance that was given in the original post.

Most of us did a LOT of things before we were saved that we wouldn't expect to be ignored now, if we were in a leadership position. If a minister became addicted to drugs, or became an alcoholic, I wouldn't expect him to be re-instated quickly. The Bible does give us some guidelines for those in leadership.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by notofworks

You know what, BeenThinkin, it doesn't seem so much to be the unchurched that don't want a so-called "fallen" minister back in the pulpit, it's the church folks, from what I've seen.

I wonder how much we hurt ourselves with our "target-audience" (the unchurched) when we practice abolishment of "the fallen"? Do they see grace or judgement? Do they see us shooting our wounded? Do they wonder what would ever happen to them if they became a Christian and failed?

It has been said, "The Christian Army is the only Army that shoots their wounded." Sometimes, it seems true.

I recently heard of an old friend who has "fallen". I called him and said, "Get here as fast as you can. I want you back on the stage doing what you do best. The Body of Christ needs what you have to offer. I want you to tangibly feel that God has not given up on you and isn't finished with you."

For all have sinned (past tense) and come short (present tense) of God's glory.

Sounds like you are trying to put Galatians 6:1 into practice.

I remember a fellow Bible School student who told me one time that he didn't think anyone who "backslid" should ever be "used" in a church again. I told him that I'm glad King David didn't believe that way or he would have never written another Psalm after his fling.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I was using the circumstance that was given in the original post.

Most of us did a LOT of things before we were saved that we wouldn't expect to be ignored now, if we were in a leadership position. If a minister became addicted to drugs, or became an alcoholic, I wouldn't expect him to be re-instated quickly. The Bible does give us some guidelines for those in leadership.

Yes, I understood that you were using the original case. I should have stated that better.

I understand those guidelines and I don't think anyone, continually and unremorsefully (not a word, but you get the point), walking in sin would be fit for the ministry. Clearly, that's covered in scripture.

So the question is, when one falls, in any capacity, how long should one wait until being reinstated?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Yes, I understood that you were using the original case. I should have stated that better.

I understand those guidelines and I don't think anyone, continually and unremorsefully (not a word, but you get the point), walking in sin would be fit for the ministry. Clearly, that's covered in scripture.

So the question is, when one falls, in any capacity, how long should one wait until being reinstated?

Just speaking practically, I'd think it would be when the people you were hoping to lead, once again were confident in your ability to lead. In some cases that might happen fairly quickly, in others... maybe never.

I think people are too hung up on being restored to 'leadership', though. There is a LOT you can do for the kingdom of God without being on the platform.

I'm related to someone who had multiple affairs while he was 'preaching'. He eventually 'backslid', then proceeded to divorce and remarry several times. Now he's bitter because, even though he's 'back in church', a lot of places won't let him preach. My response is - what's wrong with jail ministry? Visiting nursing homes, juvenile centers, the house-bound? Every church he wants to be part of would allow that. But, no, he doesn't want that. He wants to be on stage. In "leadership".

Anyone can work for God. Can witness, tell the good news of Jesus. But the Bible does have specific requirements for those who truly lead.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Sam

Sounds like you are trying to put Galatians 6:1 into practice.

I remember a fellow Bible School student who told me one time that he didn't think anyone who "backslid" should ever be "used" in a church again. I told him that I'm glad King David didn't believe that way or he would have never written another Psalm after his fling.

Galatians 6:1? I LOVE that verse. It is an enormous proclamation of grace.

I know it's embarrassing when Ted Haggard, and those that are lesser known, fall. Fail. Sin. Commit immorality. But is it possible we could turn an embarrassment into something we could be proud of? Could Christianity ever be a place where the "squeaky door gets the oil" just like the sinful soul received the blood as a result of the cross? What would it say to the world, that we claim we're trying to reach, if quick and instant restoration were given to the repentant? Wouldn't Christianity become a place that is incredibly attractive? I dream of it but I don't know if it's possible.

I guess I would like to see anyone who's fallen, be restored as quickly as Peter was when he denied and cursed the dying Savior.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Just speaking practically, I'd think it would be when the people you were hoping to lead, once again were confident in your ability to lead. In some cases that might happen fairly quickly, in others... maybe never.

I think people are too hung up on being restored to 'leadership', though. There is a LOT you can do for the kingdom of God without being on the platform.

I'm related to someone who had multiple affairs while he was 'preaching'. He eventually 'backslid', then proceeded to divorce and remarry several times. Now he's bitter because, even though he's 'back in church', a lot of places won't let him preach. My response is - what's wrong with jail ministry? Visiting nursing homes, juvenile centers, the house-bound? Every church he wants to be part of would allow that. But, no, he doesn't want that. He wants to be on stage. In "leadership".

Anyone can work for God. Can witness, tell the good news of Jesus. But the Bible does have specific requirements for those who truly lead.

The bolded...I think the idea of grace is that restoration takes place. Restore? I think that would mean being restore fully to what one was, whether that be choir member or pastor.

The case you mentioned? Wow. I guess I would think that if he's qualified to preached to prisoners, he's qualified to anyone. I suppose I would understand if he's not given a place of pulpit ministry, but honestly, if his heart is fully in the right place, I would be open to using him.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Galatians 6:1? I LOVE that verse. It is an enormous proclamation of grace.

I know it's embarrassing when Ted Haggard, and those that are lesser known, fall. Fail. Sin. Commit immorality. But is it possible we could turn an embarrassment into something we could be proud of? Could Christianity ever be a place where the "squeaky door gets the oil" just like the sinful soul received the blood as a result of the cross? What would it say to the world, that we claim we're trying to reach, if quick and instant restoration were given to the repentant? Wouldn't Christianity become a place that is incredibly attractive? I dream of it but I don't know if it's possible.

I guess I would like to see anyone who's fallen, be restored as quickly as Peter was when he denied and cursed the dying Savior.

If I remember history, this happened with Swaggert. He had a very brief period in which he "repented" and for the most part was forgiven by the church crowd and started to preach again. But was soon caught, yet again, with a prostitute in his car. That time...people were not as quick to forgive.
You mentioned Haggard, I read where his book is coming out and he and his wife are planning a tour to promote it, no doubt he will take a pulpit soon. Yet another well known minister admitted to a gay affair and went through "restoration" and after just a short time is ministering every Sunday in a large church, and is still preaching very well.

I think the track record for forgivness by the church is very good if the minister shows the fruit of repentence.

Do you not think so?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

So, your contention is that the man in question really did not sin at all, unless the female was married, in which case he is disqualified from ministry?

A man cheating on his wife (if a single woman) is not so bad, but a woman cheating on her husband is always sin?

Biblically he's right according to the letter of the law. For example, Abraham could take Sarah's bond servant Hagar and it not be adultery. However, David (who already had many wives) took Bathsheba (Uriah's wife) and it was considered adultery.