This is probably the biggest reason of all. Second, I don't see the power in our churches we should be seeing. I believe every service when someone comes for prayer there should be miracles of healing. Deliverances. Signs and wonders.
But I believe it is coming, I'm not sure what is holding it back.
I don't believe that such things were ever meant to be the norm for the church.
Even the churches that are known to forbid and chasten such behavior are in decline. People are constantly being fed this "either/or" line of reasoning:
"Either fundamentalism is true, the earth is 6,000 years old and the continents were covered by a flood just 4,000 years ago or you might as well go out and go clubbin' and bump n grind on friday and saturday then sing in the choir on sunday. You can live life and party like a rockstar and still be on the church board or in a church ministry..."
So, what do people do when the only choices are "clubbin' like a rock star" or believing foolishness?
How about the obvious and often unmentioned choice? The decision to accept the natural world as God has created it, and accept it on both God's and nature's terms? This acceptance involves an understanding of cause and effect.
If you have a cause like natural sexual procreation you will have an effect like biological evolution among the offspring. This is just accepting nature on its own terms.
Also: If you go "clubbin' like a rock star" every Friday and Saturday night, your life will bear the results of such behavior and you'll suffer the consequences. This would be an example of refusing to accept life and reality on its terms.
Simple cause and effect. Like John 7:37-38. Cause and effect.
Not sure what the bolded is .... I've never heard it used or stated before. I don't believe the problem with people today is arguments over the flood or other events in the Bible. This is quite honestly the first I've heard in YEARS where someone relates not living for God to not believing as true certain events written about in the Bible. Saints, sinners, so-called backsliders....none have had any problems with what's recorded in the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*
Then why aren't Pentecostal churches bursting at the seams? We believe in the infilling of the Spirit, our churches are alive, lives are changed, etc. etc. We lose people just as quickly as other churches do. Our teenagers are hitting the door just as quickly as the ones at the other churches.
I don't personally think Noah and the Ark is what's keeping them out, either, but something is missing. Something more than just lack of 'power' and 'changed lives'.
(I personally think what is missing is true relationship with Jesus....somehow a lot of people just aren't getting that)
Just to note: by "changed lives," I don't mean so-called holiness standards. I mean an inward change. I agree what's missing is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
The Bible says you will have power after the HG is upon you ... and you will be witnesses. Regarding pentecostal churches, many have the power but few are witnesses. Lack of boldness, fear, intimidation have kept them back from seeing the power of God (signs, wonders, miracles) demonstrated.
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Originally Posted by Aquila
One of the issues I can see is that "church" today is a corporation, a money making enterprise. It's business. Those who attend house churches are far more satisfied with their spirituality than Christians who attend church. Why? The fellowship is deep, private, and intimate. Church is a Sunday show with entertaining music and message. Sadly, the way we do church doesn't lend itself to "intimate relationship" between each other or Jesus.
I agree with this as well. Not only have they made church a business, but they've made church a social center. Gone are the markings and makings of christianity, in is social justice and human rights. Services are a showcase of entertainment, talent and money. There is no call to repentence or salvation. There are "prayer partners" to pray with, but no calls to the altar. Messages have become self-help seminars. Instead of preaching the Gospel (death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) we hear the Gospel of prosperity and happy living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esther
This is probably the biggest reason of all. Second, I don't see the power in our churches we should be seeing. I believe every service when someone comes for prayer there should be miracles of healing. Deliverances. Signs and wonders.
But I believe it is coming, I'm not sure what is holding it back.
Exactly. There should be a demonstration of the power of the Holy Ghost in our churches, and there isn't. Especially in so-called "mainstream" churches. The majority would state belief in the Holy Ghost, but only as a gift to empower individuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog
I don't believe that such things were ever meant to be the norm for the church.
Why not? They were a norm for Jesus and His disciples? Didn't He say greater things than these shall we do?
This is probably the biggest reason of all. Second, I don't see the power in our churches we should be seeing. I believe every service when someone comes for prayer there should be miracles of healing. Deliverances. Signs and wonders.
But I believe it is coming, I'm not sure what is holding it back.
I did a study on miracles once. If you look at Scripture there appear to be "seasons" of miracles. While God’s hand of providence is nearly always seen in Scripture actual “miracles” appear only at certain times. For example Abraham and Sarah didn’t see a lot of “miracles” while it’s obvious providence was at work. Yet when Moses appears we see an outpouring of miracles. Then we see miracles taper off a bit during the times of the judges. We see small outpourings of miracles around the lives of the prophets, especially Elijah and Elisha. Then they taper off a bit. Then we see an outpouring of miracles during the life of Christ. This outpouring of miracles continues through the book of Acts (the majority of which can be found in the early portion of the book of Acts). Then history shows that miracles tapered off again only to be seen in small outbreaks when Catholic mystics would preach (often Pentecostal style). More miracles followed in the wake of some of the Reformation. Then they taper off again. Next we see a small surge during the revivalist movements. Next we see a virtual explosion of miracles during the early years of the 20th Century Pentecostal movement. And again they’ve tapered off. We’re awaiting another outpouring of miracles for our generation.
It would appear that miracles don’t just manifest when we ask. Nor do they manifest when we feel we “need” them. But rather miracles always appear to manifest in the wake of a unique message from God (Moses, the prophets, Jesus, the Apostles). For example, the Pentecostal Movement in the early 20th Century. The new understanding of Pentecost was a relatively new message in the United States and as this message was delivered miracles abounded and astounded denominational Christianity. The Oneness message appears to have extended this outpouring of miracles. However, as stated above as Pentecost has become more “organizational” like the denominational churches direct or fresh revelation has waned. And with it the outpouring of miracles.
Miracles seem to have a purpose. Their purpose is the follow in the wake of a message and validate the message with signs and wonders. All too often I think that Pentecostals look at miracles like an “entitlement” and they become bewildered when miracles aren’t present as in earlier years.
So why have they tapered off? Perhaps the Pentecostal movement has drifted from moving into additional revelation or depth of anointing. Interestingly today our preachers “sermonize” to “pack the house” and our speakers are more celebrities than prophets. Wealth and excess is found throughout the ministry and sadly we’re becoming very much like every other denomination.
Noah and biblical history isn't the reason for dwindling numbers in churches. The reason for dwindling numbers is because a lot of churches, possibly the majority of christian churches in america have no power. Lives are unchanged, people can go clubbin' and bump n grind on friday and saturday then sing in the choir on sunday. You can live life and party like a rockstar and still be on the church board or in a church ministry. Churches have become centers for so-called "social justice" and have become politically correct. There is not black and white; no naming sin as such. Instead sin is tolerated as merely being human and fallible. There is no hell, no judgement for sin.
Fortunately I believe there will be a day when some churches finally wake up, shake off the dust, get back to the Bible and there will be a final great awakening.
Well, I obviously wouldn't see it that way.
The churches you are describing, that sound carnal from a distance, are ironically the only churches making progress in the post-modern culture. There are dozens of "Seeker" churches, that are commonly labeled as "no hell, no judgement, no naming of sin", that have church populations made up of well over 50% new believers, when the national average is less than 10%. And they're making much of their progress in the younger post-modern culture. Mosaic, for example, in the very tough artistic crowd of LA, has a church populated by 80% ages 28 and under, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 70+ percent of them are believing Christ for the first time.
God's "power" is demonstrated in many other ways than just the judgement of sin, the preaching of hell, and the demand for modified behavior. It (God's power) is also shown in kindness, love, joy, peace, gentleness, etc., and the other "Fruits of the Spirit", and it's those elements that, apparently, are most attractive to the unbeliever, for we are known by our love and by our fruits.
I would wonder what the results would be if you walked a post-modern college campus and issued the power of God's judgement, the speaking of hell, and the clear lines of "black & white" (a term I don't care for). I wonder how many would turn from their wicked ways and trust Christ.
I rarely call out sin in messages. Why? The "works of the flesh" are "obvious" according to Galatians 5. They already know. What they want and need to know is how to resolve these issues and what they CAN do, rather than what they CAN'T.
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Last edited by notofworks; 03-16-2010 at 01:26 PM.
The churches you are describing, that sound carnal from a distance, are ironically the only churches making progress in the post-modern culture. There are dozens of "Seeker" churches, that are commonly labeled as "no hell, no judgement, no naming of sin", that have church populations made up of well over 50% new believers, when the national average is less than 10%. And they're making much of their progress in the younger post-modern culture. Mosaic, for example, in the very tough artistic crowd of LA, has a church populated by 80% ages 28 and under, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 70+ percent of them are believing Christ for the first time.
God's "power" is demonstrated in many other ways than just the judgement of sin, the preaching of hell, and the demand for modified behavior. It (God's power) is also shown in kindness, love, joy, peace, gentleness, etc., and the other "Fruits of the Spirit", and it's those elements that, apparently, are most attractive to the unbeliever, for we are known by our love and by our fruits.
I would wonder what the results would be if you walked a post-modern college campus and issued the power of God's judgement, the speaking of hell, and the clear lines of "black & white" (a term I don't care for). I wonder how many would turn from their wicked ways and trust Christ.
I rarely call out sin in messages. Why? The "works of the flesh" are "obvious" according to Galatians 5. They already know. What they want and need to know is how to resolve these issues and what they CAN do, rather than what they CAN'T.
Well, that was the last three sentences of a full paragraph....you've completely missed the boat on my post, especially the bolded part.
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