Banned from AMF, AGAIN!

[JoeCastorina]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think one fundamental difference is that you are viewing pastors as superiors to laity. I view them as equals.

Another fundamental difference is that you want to compare modern day pastors more to old testament priests. I would describe them more as Pharisees or Rabbis, NOT BECAUSE OF HYPOCRISY, but because the general consensus is that they were the religious leaders of Jesus' time. Many pharisees and Rabbis were not of the tribe of Levi and so these would not have received tithes. (If I am wrong on this please correct me).

Neither of the bolded statements above accurately describe my beliefs.

I do not believe pastors are superior to laity. Christ is the one who is superior. Hebrews 7 shows us how Christ is the final recipient of tithing. It says that on one hand we tithe to mortal men, but on the other hand it is to the one who lives forever.

When I talk about the superior blessing the inferior, I am speaking of Christ, not pastors.

As for comparing modern day pastors to OT priests, I see where the comparison is often made. I don't necessarily disagree with the comparison, but I see pastors more like OT prophets than priests.

Again, tithing is a principle. I'm not saying that "pastor = priest" therefore pastor gets tithe. Nope. However, I do believe tithing is how God has shown that he takes care of those who devote their lives to the ministry.

See I Corinthians 9. Paul argued his right to receive compensation from the church for his ministry.

I believe the workman is worthy of his hire. I believe that a pastor who can be compensated fully by the church should be. Tithing is not about the preacher getting the money from the victimized laity. Tithing is how God provides for the ministry (not saying it is the only purpose, just saying that it is how provision is made on a consistent basis). It was patterned in the OT, and I haven't seen sufficient proof that the plan has ceased.

FTR, most pastors I know do not even take the full tithe. They usually take a percentage and put the rest toward something else. We have many many good men who have put their own blood, sweat, tears, and money into starting churches and building churches. They have faced hell and more to do a work for God. I believe these men should not have to face the insecurity and struggles of financial hardship if they don't have to.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by JoeCastorina

Neither of the bolded statements above accurately describe my beliefs.

I do not believe pastors are superior to laity. Christ is the one who is superior. Hebrews 7 shows us how Christ is the final recipient of tithing. It says that on one hand we tithe to mortal men, but on the other hand it is to the one who lives forever.

When I talk about the superior blessing the inferior, I am speaking of Christ, not pastors.

As for comparing modern day pastors to OT priests, I see where the comparison is often made. I don't necessarily disagree with the comparison, but I see pastors more like OT prophets than priests.

Again, tithing is a principle. I'm not saying that "pastor = priest" therefore pastor gets tithe. Nope. However, I do believe tithing is how God has shown that he takes care of those who devote their lives to the ministry.

See I Corinthians 9. Paul argued his right to receive compensation from the church for his ministry.

I believe the workman is worthy of his hire. I believe that a pastor who can be compensated fully by the church should be. Tithing is not about the preacher getting the money from the victimized laity. Tithing is how God provides for the ministry (not saying it is the only purpose, just saying that it is how provision is made on a consistent basis). It was patterned in the OT, and I haven't seen sufficient proof that the plan has ceased.

FTR, most pastors I know do not even take the full tithe. They usually take a percentage and put the rest toward something else. We have many many good men who have put their own blood, sweat, tears, and money into starting churches and building churches. They have faced hell and more to do a work for God. I believe these men should not have to face the insecurity and struggles of financial hardship if they don't have to.

I don't understand how Hebrews 7 shows that Christ is the final recipient of tithing when it is done to men. So anything you want to elaborate on about this would be great!

I do not believe God has shown tithes to be how to take care of the ministry. That is why I mentioned Rabbis. You mentioned an even better example, the prophets. The prophets were all men of God but I don't recall them ever receiving tithes. (I might have missed something though). It seems to me that of all the many kinds of ministers God used that only priests received tithes.

I too believe that pastors and the ministry can and should be supported or compensated. I just don't believe that the bible describes tithes as the way to do this. I also am not accusing pastors of being greedy or misusing the money they receive from tithes.

EDIT: I just wanted to add, I don't think pastors should have to guess how much is going to be in the offering plate each week and then try to base their finances on that. I think teaching the importance of committing to giving a consistent amount monthly or weekly could easily solve this issue for churches that don't want to teach tithing.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Randy,
would you die for your dog?

Trick question. If some maniac was holding a gun to both of us and said "I will shoot one of you! Choose! You or the dog?" -then the choice would be easy. The dog. Now if my dog was in danger, like stranded on a cliff or caught in a river I may indeed risk my life to save him.

Likewise if my dog and my bottle of Bud Light were both going over a cliff and I could only choose one......

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by tbpew

can someone who "Robs God" be saved?

Can someone who fails to bring in a portion of their agricultural produce to the Jerusalem Temple be said to be "robbing God" when that Temple doesn't even exist?

Malachi 3:10 - "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house... saith the LORD of hosts."

What and where is that "house?"

Exodus 25:22; 1 Kings 8:10-11, Numbers 7:8-9; 1 Kings 8:29, 1 Kings 9:3; 2 Chronicles 7:15-15; - - - See especially Deuteronomy 12:4-14.

Those that offered their sacrifices and gave their tithes in "every place that thou seest" were the ones who "robbed God." The tithe was specifically for the House in Jerusalem. Anything else was "robbing God."

Where do you send your tithes?

[JoeCastorina]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I don't understand how Hebrews 7 shows that Christ is the final recipient of tithing when it is done to men. So anything you want to elaborate on about this would be great!

I don't have time to answer all your points, but I'll touch this one right now and come back to the others later when I am not at my office.

In Hebrews 7 the writer uses the subject of tithes to establish the superiority of Christ's priesthood. Here is the passage in the ESV.

7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

2 and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace.

3 He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.

4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!

5 And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, [1] though these also are descended from Abraham.

6 But this man who does not have his descent from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.

7 It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior.

8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.

9 One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, 10 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.

Notice in verse 5 that it is the Levites who receive the priestly office (ministerial office) that are told to take the tithes. The reason for this is because they have no inheritance like the other tribes of Israel. Their portion, their inheritance, is the tenth of what the other tribes have. This allowed them to completely focus on the ministry and not have to till the land or work as a carpenter, or some other job.

Notice in verse 8 the writer makes this statement,

8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.

We shouldn't find it strange that Christ becomes the recipient of actions done to other men. He himself said this,

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’

45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, jyou did not do it to me.’ -Matthew 25:42-45-

Again, I believe that tithing is a principle of authority, worship, submission, and blessings. When a person tithes, they may be physically placing the money into an offering bag held by men, but they are actually tithing to Christ as indicated in vs 8.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by JoeCastorina

...
The writer of Hebrews uses the subject of tithing to prove the superiority of Christ's priesthood. He shows that Christ is the end recipient of tithes. Christ is the superior, we are the inferior. The superior always blesses the inferior. That is a law of authority that the writer of Hebrews clearly acknowledges and associates with this practice.

Tithing is not a part of the OT law in that it pre-existed the law. Abraham did it (we have no reason to believe it was a one time only event), Jacob promised it to God, and many believe even Able did it when he brought the first of his herd to God in sacrifice. On top of this, only the ceremonial law of the OT was fuliflled, the moral law sill applies even to the Christian.

A quick problem with this statement is that shell fish were "an abomination" under the Law (Leviticus 11:10) but in the New Testament they have been "cleansed" (Acts 10:15) - or more particularly, those that eat these things are now "purified by faith" (Acts 15:9 and Acts 15:19-20). To go from "abomination" to "purified their hearts through faith" is certainly a moral transformation - IMHO. Thus, we see how the "moral Law" was changed and modified with the ministry of Jesus Christ and not just the Temple ordinaces and "ceremonial Laws."

Originally Posted by JoeCastorina

As for it being salvific, when we get into the mindset that categorizes each doctrine as a "Heaven Issue" or "Hell Issue" then we have completely lost the point. Tithing is not about "do this or burn." Tithing is a principle of authority, worship, submission, and blessings. To turn it into a Heaven or Hell argument is to remove the very purpose of tithing.

The lack of tithing speaks to a greater internal issue. God gives us everything we are increased with. He asks only for 10% to support those who devote their lives to ministry. To refuse God the 10% he requests is to deny his sovereignty. You rob God of his authority in your life.

That's a brief description of my take on the issue anyway.

I think I can see where you're coming from Joe, and I appreciate the importance that you mention about "the tithe" ultimately "being Christ's."

You didn't bring it up, but my mind went immediately to the argument that I've heard all my life: "Just give your tithe to the pastor and if he ever misuses any of it then he'll be accountable and not you!"

This is coupled with the argument, "The tithe is the pastor's! It's his "lot" from God!"

I seriously disagree with these statements and I find support for my disagreement in your argument above - and also an example in Acts 5:4 -
Peter said to Ananias and Sapphira:

"While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." (NKJV)

The money (in whatever amount or proportion - even the "widow's mite!") is in the hand of the believer (presumably a "believer") and it is their responsibility where and how it is distributed. Christian ministers are an important conduit for this (see 2 Corinthians 8:10-24).

And, how a minister distributes the money that is placed into his custody is an important facet for judging his ministry - 1 Timothy 3:2 and other passages related to "hospitality" - "philo - xenos" - and also Acts 6:1-6.

I think I understood you to say that the important things were the matters of the heart and not the ledger. In this I am in complete agreement. Perhaps most objections to "tithing" could be overcome if folks weren't always made to feel that they were being squeezed for "protection money."

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by JoeCastorina

I don't have time to answer all your points, but I'll touch this one right now and come back to the others later when I am not at my office.

In Hebrews 7 the writer uses the subject of tithes to establish the superiority of Christ's priesthood. Here is the passage in the ESV.



Notice in verse 5 that it is the Levites who receive the priestly office (ministerial office) that are told to take the tithes. The reason for this is because they have no inheritance like the other tribes of Israel. Their portion, their inheritance, is the tenth of what the other tribes have. This allowed them to completely focus on the ministry and not have to till the land or work as a carpenter, or some other job.

Notice in verse 8 the writer makes this statement,



We shouldn't find it strange that Christ becomes the recipient of actions done to other men. He himself said this,



Again, I believe that tithing is a principle of authority, worship, submission, and blessings. When a person tithes, they may be physically placing the money into an offering bag held by men, but they are actually tithing to Christ as indicated in vs 8.

I totally agree that Hebrews 7 is about the superiority of Christ's priesthood.

Though, maybe I am not following you on this, but I see Hebrews 7:1-10 as being all about the priesthood of Melchisedec compared to the priesthood of Levi. Specifically, your bolded part of verse 8 is referring back to verses 3 and 4. If I may paraphrase verse 8 it is saying that the Levites are mortal and receive tithes but Melchisedec is immortal and received tithes for Abraham paid them to him.

In verse 15 speaking of Christ it says, "And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,". This shows that Christ's and Melchisedec's priesthoods are very closely related. So much so that I think anything that applies for Melchisedec's could probably be said to apply to Christ's. Though, I am still at a loss as to how Hebrews 7 shows Christ is somehow the final recipient of tithing when we tithe to a pastor for even all the verses (1-10) about Melchisedec's priesthood don't show that Melchisedec was the final recipient of any tithe that anyone gave to someone else.

As far as what Jesus was saying about whatever you do to the dispriveleged you have done to him, this does show a principle that what we do to others can be as though we did it to Christ. However, it would be easy for me to teach that all pastors should give tithes to me and as such they would be doing it as though it was to Christ. In other words, without some other clear principle to show why tithing should be done to pastors instead of just offerings then invoking the notion that "tithing to me is as unto Christ" shouldn't be used because it applies for anyone that might say it.

[jfrog]

oops double post

[Jason B]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=146

bump for Bro. Castorina

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I AM ASKING FOR ONE POST OF MINE TO BE CUT AND PASTED FROM AMF WHERE I CALLED ONE A FALSE PROPHET, WHERE I USED A PERSONAL INSULT DIRECTED AT ANY POSTER. I strongly disagree with some of thier doctrine, I can't recall even one time insulting them as a person.

Originally Posted by JoeCastorina

I don't have a lot of time to respond to your entire post, but I did want to at least respond to this portion.

Did you specifically point someone out and say "Bro. ______ you are a false prophet."

No.

However, your post said this, "I do believe those teaching tithing are teaching false doctrine."

This is exactly what I have said from the beginning. I NEVER, NOT ONCE personally insulted them, or came against even ONE man on that forum from a personal standpoint. Yes I came against thier doctrine. Thats what the discussion is about. Do not Bro. Benincasa, Burk, and Blume believe that many of the men are teaching false doctrine when they teach prophecy? That's not really the issue, the issue is I spoke as another poster said "against the machine".

So in review, never ONCE did I personally insult a man on AMF, apart from disagreeing with their doctrine, or their pronouncing hell upon some people (who I believe they have no right to judge).

Some AMF bretheren came on here and said I had an "In your face attitude" that I called men false prophets, etc. I have repeatedly asked for EVEN ONE quote to be posted where I did any of this, and 23 pages into this thread, guess what, not one yet.

Again, I have called the men at AMF
1)godly men
2)good bretheren
3)servants of God
4)ministers of Jesus Christ
etc

They have called me
1)heathen
2)rebrobate
3)charismatic
4)liberal
5)damned
6)liar


By their fruits you shall know them?