Can Women Pastor ?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by rdp

I see, so you're the judge sitting on a solitary panel who dictates who "loses scholarly points" or not.

It's not really quite that deep. There's no panel. No literal points (you have trouble keeping metaphors for what they're worth)

Scholar A says to RDP "Most who believe x are unscholarly."
Meanwhile, someone needs to send a memo to the scores of other NT Scholars that don't believe x. Therefore, Scholar A is talking about of his gluteus maximus (another metaphor).

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Being a Pastor is not the same as "exercising authority over".

Are you asserting here that the God-ordained ministry is not in a postion of authority in the church?

I think the evidence for what the greek word here means speaks for itself. If this is untrue please provide the evidence

You have to consider these verses in the context they are in.

Yes, & the context was church order. "These things I write to you so that you may know how to behave yourself in the household of God, which is the church....."

Right, that is what I said. It's regarding a church service and in the context the verse in question is used, the subject is learning in the service

Is this speaking of being a pastor? Then why not say "I do not allow a woman to pastor". But specifically this is a woman not having authority over a man, not over men and women in the church,

You're speculating into the text, which does not state what you state here. It's an argument from silence Prax. You know better than that.

Im pointing out what the verse says and does not say. An argument from silence is says "Since this verse does not say it's true, it must not be true". The verse does not say Pastoring. It says to exercise authority over a man, not over the church. Again that is not an argument from silence. That is stating what the verse actually says or does not say. Im showing what the verse says grammatically.

He begins with "But". That tells you this statement is related to a statement just made.

Which translation are you appealing to? And how does this change the plainess of the text?

What is your counter argument?

1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness.

Who in the world would just read that & conclude from the text alone that God "calls women preachers" in the church?? No one who simply allows the text to speak for itself.

I never asserted from this alone or anything else, that we should conclude God calls women preachers. In addition the subject is woman pastors, not preachers. Preachers proclaim, not exercise authority.

What is significant of this is previously Jewish women were not allowed to go to synagogue and learn, only men were. So Paul is introducing a radical change in cultural thinking

Prax, Paul's writings were to the NT churches, not the inter-testamental Jews. So synagogues have nothing to do w/ this text, & the text never even mentions a synagogue. You're speculating INTO the text [eisegesis].

Paul's writings are to a judaeo Christian church. Many of the members were Jews previously used to visiting synagogues. Proselytes were also familiar with this as would non-proselyte Gentiles. One of the important things to understand before studing the bible is to whom and when it was written. And in Paul's day the church started with JEWS. It spread out to include GENTILES. To even the Gentiles women were the meek and quite member. Even gentile women wore veils back then. Paul is introducing a radical concept to the Jewish Christians and even to the Gentile Christians brought into the Judaeo Christian church...the idea that when it comes to the word of God and learning the women were now equals.

That is not eisegesis. Eisegesis is not the act of pointing out the history and culture of the people of the day when this was written.

Then Paul says "I permit"...this is peculiar because he is speaking as Paul. Notice in this place where Paul distinguishes between what he teaches and what is the Lord's teaching? 1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

"If any man among you thinks himself to be spiritual or a prophet, let him acknowledge that the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." When Paul was speaking on his own accord he explicitly states so, which he does not do here.

That is beside the point, clearly I have proven that Paul made a distinction between something that was his own opinion and something that was the Lord's command.

But what is Paul permitting or not permitting here?

From the NET bible commentary
According to BDAG 150 s.αὐθεντέω this Greek verb means "to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to" (cf. JB "tell a man what to do").

So Paul is saying a woman should never assume a stance of independent authority, give orders or dictate to.

So the taught Word of God is not instructional? Besides, a commentary is not a lexicon, & I can quote several commentaries that strongly disagree. So, back to the text.

I don't know what you mean by "the taught word of God is not instructional" since I did not say it wasn't. This commentary is QUOTING a lexicon. You dismissed this rather than addressed it. The BDAG is a lexicon and one of the better ones

So presumably if that is someone's idea of what a Pastor is then yes she can't be a pastor....if that is really what a pastor is...a dictator

The nouns used here for women and men can be translated wife and husband too.

And not one single reputable translation adopts this rendering. Hmmmm. The terms primarily mean simply man & woman, just as translated.

Were Adam and Eve husband and wife?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

From what I understand in the synagogues only the men went and learned...in quite subjection. Paul broke this cultural norm and allowed women to learn too in quite subjection. In the synagogues the men would then come home to their wives and teach them.

Where is all of this theology stated in the actual text:___________?

As stated before, this is the cultural setting of the time. It helps to understand what Paul means when you know to who and why he is writing

So this doesn't seem to be addressing pastoring unless one believes pastoring is to give orders.

"Obey them that have the R-U-L-E OVER you. and submit yourselves......" Sounds authoritative to me.

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Besides, the term for "Elders" is ALWAYS in the Masculine...NEVER in the feminine!

Are all Elders pastors? Are all Pastors Elders?

[Jeffrey]

Well done, Prax.

Also, this obsession with word genders is not a 100% reliable way of knowing if he's referring to men or women, or only men. Often times a masculine word can include BOTH. It's a good thing to look at, but more should be examined before concluding a masculine word always refers to men. It's language.

[Sister Alvear]

Wise men like King David will recognize the “Abigails”. The “Baraks” will gladly follow the “Deborahs”. Kings and priests will learn from the “Huldahs”. The “Simons” will rejoice as the “Annas” do prophesy. Even the “Mordicahs” will remind the “Esthers” that life alone depends on their brave interceding.

[Sister Alvear]

The bible also teaches we are to be subject to one another...

[Sister Alvear]

We need to understand that there is a “middle of the road” for every woman of God especially if she is married and has children. There are domestic responsibilities as well as spiritual responsibilities. The wise woman knows how to combine both. For example, Deborah and her friend, Jael, had their domestic responsibilities, and fulfilled them; but they were also used of God. For in one of the most difficult times of Israel’s history, God chose these women as leaders to bring freedom to their nation. Deborah, as God’s mouthpiece, vanquished and annihilated the formidable powers that had ground Israel to dust for twenty years.

[Sister Alvear]

I am painfully aware that religious activities in Greco-Roman paganism included cult prostitution and shriek cries described as wild outcries. The Corinthian female dominated religious thought and practice. From the mother goddess Artemis to the women serving their time as sacred temple prostitutes and speaking messages from the gods, the male of Corinth was deeply dependent upon the female. Yet this has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ but sadly it has influenced the thinking of many people. Yet men like John of Chrysostom (who was no champion of women) called Priscilla a “teacher of teachers.”
So who are we to judge what God has spoken to someone else? Who are we to say what they feel deep in their hearts.
So many times in my life it would have been easier for the moment to deny the calling of God and be on the popular bandwagon but I fear God to much for that. For he has no time to waste on people who will not be true to their calling. I think of something I read in Foxes book of Martyrs about The First Persecution, Under Nero, A.D. 67.
This persecution was general throughout the whole Roman Empire; but it rather increased than diminished the spirit of Christianity. Another part says ,
"a noble army, men and boys, the matron and the maid," "climbed the steep ascent of heaven, 'mid peril, toil, and pain."

Rest assured there were many women preachers that died for the gospel....


Five of our adopted children their sweet preacher mother died for the gospel...a modern day martyr...

[Sister Alvear]

I have felt the call of God on my life since a small child. It grieves me to see people waste precious time debating other people’s call. I have never tried to defend my call for what human can explain the divine?
It is only a desire in my heart to see every soul saved and every mouthpiece possible used to that end. Our endless shopping sprees would suddenly come to a halt if we could really realize the fate of the lost. Vacations would not have the same flavor if we could look on eternity through the eyes of him who uttered, “Look upon the fields, they are white unto harvest.” If calvary were to become as real to us as we say it is our little ego trips of who spreads the message would fade into obscurity as we look upon an agonizing Savior pointing us to go to the ends of the world proclaiming this life giving message. As the old song reminds us, if Calvary could talk it would tell us to go tell the lost.

[Sister Alvear]

D
own through the eons and ages there has been a special warfare that has been focused on woman. We see her in her beginning in Gen. 2:23 she was called Isha because she was taken out of man. In Gen. 3:20 her husband called her Eve, the mother of all living or life giver. From the point of her beginning to this point woman was no longer taken out of man but man was born of woman. Eve, the wife of the first man Adam along with him failed the test. But we can see a spiritual order of things in the natural order of things. What was lost in the first man Adam was regained in the second man Adam. It has been well said that man was made in the image of God and failed miserably but in the fullness of time God was made in the likeness of man and triumphed gloriously. As he hung suspended on the tree and in his suffering he said, “ It is finished.” He gave up the ghost. Jesus often referred to death as sleep. In his sleep, in his death when the Roman soldier punctured his side with a spear and blood and water gushed out. Out of his side came a woman, a lady, a bride, and a wife. Out of his side came a church, the lady of ladies. So what a awesome responsibility that is given to the woman.
In I Thess. 5:5-8 Paul speaks about the Breastplate of faith and helmet of hope. These are articles used to dress out and fit a person for war.
When some think of a lady they think of sewing clubs, bridge parties, and cooks. Although these things may go along with the feminine side Paul said we are called to fight. In the sense of warfare there is no room for the powdered, pampered, weak and dainty.
We find ourselves engaged in war. Just as Deborah had no time to waste on those that were not willing to come to the aid of the Lord neither do I waste my time and talents arguing over who may go to war. From the earliest documents of church history we find noble men and women working together for a common cause.
The most important task of the church is reaching out to the lost. His last testament last words before returning to heaven were, “go into all the world… teach all nations… pray that laborers would be sent into the harvest…´ Last words are reserved for the most important things. Soul winning was the most important task He gave to the church.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Well done, Prax.

Also, this obsession with word genders is not a 100% reliable way of knowing if he's referring to men or women, or only men. Often times a masculine word can include BOTH. It's a good thing to look at, but more should be examined before concluding a masculine word always refers to men. It's language.

Correct, church is feminine but surely the church is made up of both sexes