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  #1031  
Old 01-11-2010, 08:40 PM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
believing that a woman can preach does not mean that she is not under the man...I spoke at church tonight and I obey my husband and try to be an example to thousands of our ladies.
With all due respect for Sister Alvear and others, I mean nothing harmful, insulting or hurting. If a woman is preaching or teaching over men, she has assumed a position of authority over "the man" any man is "the man". No man has the authority to give to the woman the position over the man, any man. It is good to obey one's husband, but the order of the church is clearly laid out in the Bible. Everyone has their equally, but different roles as ordainded by God and also compliments the order He created in the different roles of "the man" and "the woman".
Nothing personal towards any woman, but it is apparently Gods plan as per the Epistles.
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  #1032  
Old 01-12-2010, 01:10 AM
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Wink Re: Can Women Pastor ?

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Originally Posted by Bowas View Post
With all due respect for Sister Alvear and others, I mean nothing harmful, insulting or hurting. If a woman is preaching or teaching over men, she has assumed a position of authority over "the man" any man is "the man". No man has the authority to give to the woman the position over the man, any man. It is good to obey one's husband, but the order of the church is clearly laid out in the Bible. Everyone has their equally, but different roles as ordainded by God and also compliments the order He created in the different roles of "the man" and "the woman".
Nothing personal towards any woman, but it is apparently Gods plan as per the Epistles.
Ditto!
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  #1033  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:02 AM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

I’m not promoting a masculine woman or women who overstep God’s order. Let me repeat again: A woman should look like a woman, dress like a woman, and act like a woman. There is nothing as repulsive as a woman who has manly mannerisms. On the other hand, even more detestable is a man who is feminine.
There is nothing more graceful to the eyes as a woman who is feminine or a man who is a real gentleman. Some struggle with the concept of women preachers, as Trinitarians struggle with the oneness of God. Their fundamental problem is in understanding the dual nature of Jesus. Likewise, we need to understand the dual responsibilities of a handmaiden of the Lord.
Most women have domestic responsibilities as well as spiritual responsibilities. Genesis 1:28, “And God said unto them be fruitful. And multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. And have dominion.” God said they (both) shall have dominion. In other words, God’s original thinking or plan (before the fall) for man and woman, masculine and feminine, was to have authority and dominion together. God did not tell Adam he was to have exclusive dominion, neither did He tell him he was to govern alone. God said that they were to have dominion. That helps us understand I Timothy 2:12 that says suffer not a woman to teach, or take for oneself, grab, take illegally, usurp (define) authority over the man (The man is her husband). Not a man but the man.
The apostle did not say she shouldn’t have dominion because he knew that in the original plan of God, when man and woman had just come from the Hands of the creator, they both were given dominion. The apostle was not objecting that a woman have dominion but that she could not have dominion over her husband-plain and simple. In God’s original plan, it was wrong for a man to have dominion over a woman. Neither did a woman have dominion over a man. Togetherness and sameness was God’s original concept. This is the perfect plan between the sexes -- more perfect than the Law of Moses that came later.
Note that the Pharisees asked Jesus, if under the Law of Moses it was right to divorce the wife for any reason. Note the response that was given them. “Have you not read from the beginning when God created man and women?” Also note in I Corinthians 14:5-6 “For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore there are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Jesus took them back to the Garden of Eden but the Pharisees did not like it and they took him back to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was what they lived by, but Jesus was trying to get them to go back before the Law of Moses the better and more perfect plan. The reason that Moses made a letter of divorce to put away the wife was “because of the hardness of your hearts he suffered you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so.”
The original plan of God example, “in the garden of Eden” was a better and more perfect plan-the plan before sin. The Law of Moses placed certain restrictions upon women.
We all know and admit this. We know a law that’s higher and a concept that is better. We know a plan that is more idealistic than the Law of Moses that it the original condition of things in the Garden of Eden. God gave the man and the woman dominion in conjunction together (Genesis 1:28). This is a better concept and more sublime than the Law of Moses. Someone said that Adam’s wife came from the rib out of his side. If she was made from his head someone could say that she is the head.
She did not come from his feet, so that she could be, stomped on, but came from his side, which represents that they have been equally valued. That was God’s original plan. We know that a horrible thing happened in Gen:3 that destroyed God’s ideal, or necessitated a change from the original plan.
Sin thwarted God’s concept of the man and woman’s continuity in the garden. Unto the woman he said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. After the fall not before the fall God told the woman, “Your husband shall have rule over thee.” He did not rule before the fall. It was a punishment from God because the woman yielded to temptation and ate the fruit.
But remember this was not God’s original plan. This was a part of the penalty of sin. If it was sin, (and it was) that caused the women to be ruled by man, since then the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ not only redeemed, but also all the consequences that resulted by sin.
The redemption that is in Christ Jesus took all the disadvantages pronounced upon the woman in the Garden of Eden. The redemption of Christ not only paid sin’s consequences at Calvary but transcends to future women. We who participate in redemption today can enjoy and inherit what was lost in Mother Eve. Please note while I am saying Calvary redeemed us I am not saying we are in a perfect state while yet in this world for we have not reached perfection and only when that which is perfect come shall that which is in part be done away with.
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  #1034  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:03 AM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Christianity brought full emancipation to womanhood! Luke 20:34-36: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, the children of this world marry and are given in marriage but - they shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world and the resurrection of the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; Neither can they die anymore; for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being children of the resurrection.”
That world he was talking about was the millennium (the first resurrection) so we encounter the first resurrection a co-equal level between the sexes. There will be neither male nor female in the first resurrection. It will be at this point that redeemed women will understand completely what the redemption of Christ signifies for her. It will only be at this point both man and woman will be in all things on the same level.
Redemption has to be greater than the fall and must go beyond all dimensions that the fall brought upon humanity. Redemption covers every area of life. Why is it that we have no difficulty in celebrating what redemption has brought to mankind, but yet find it hard to celebrate redemption in connection with the woman? Could it be that many theologians have biased ideas and opinions?
Revelation 20:6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection as such the second death hath no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years. This refers to the same event where there will be no difference in sex neither male nor female. Note that the Bible says “And shall reign (rule) with him one thousand years.” God’s original conception of things will be restored; male and female will be governing co-equal again (Revelation 1:6 and 5:10). Many people accept this theory in the coming generations but don’t want it in this generation. It stands to reason in this generation we are yet striving to reach that place in Christ. But as we put on Christ more and more we will see less competition among the sexes. We will all begin to realize that when the spirit moves upon us to speak we neither speak as male or female but as oracles of God. Our voice becomes his voice when we are in perfect harmony with Him.
It is true that only in the first resurrection will women experience and understand all the deep things Christ had for them. We all know this, but this present generation is the first fruit generation where from we anticipate coming things. For Christ died on the cross to redeem your spirit, soul and body. But it will not be until the first resurrection that you will see and experience the redemption of your body; yet we have the first fruits of His blessings (inheritance). If you have the baptism of the Holy Ghost, you have the first fruits of this inheritance.
Ephesians 1:13-14: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit and promise. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” The woman will not experience all the manifestations of her liberty until Jesus comes, but it would be wrong to say she has no type of emancipation.
Acts 2:16, 17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream
dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit; and they shall prophecy.
When the Holy Ghost came, it brought the first fruits or anticipation of a glorious and total liberty that takes away all disadvantages of women. Peter said: your sons and your daughters too shall prophesy (No difference). Pentecost brought the anticipated feminine emancipation.
Genesis 3:12: “And the man said, The women thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.” God came to see what had happened. Adam blamed his wife and at the same time blamed God saying, “The woman gave to me and I did eat.” Then the Lord turned and looked to the woman who pointed the blame back into the devil’s face.
The devil has hated her every since. The devil hated her because she accused him before the Lord as being responsible for the fall. With hate he has tried to humiliate and degrade her ever since. That’s why there are so many false doctrines that try to degrade women. Genesis 3:15, began a war between the woman and the devil because it would be from her seed that redemption would come (Galatians 4:4).
It is interesting to note that - three names are applied to Adam’s wife:
(1) Woman (in Genesis 2:23)
(2)Both are called Adam in Genesis 5:2. God made
them “one flesh” and gave them one name.
(3) Eve was the name given after the transgression
(Genesis 3:16, 20). Eve means “life” or “life- giving” or mother of all who have life. Maybe this helps us understand better that as mentioned through the seed of the woman, sin would one day be vanquished and death would be swallowed up in victory.
Through a woman the Holy Ghost was going to conceive and make the Word flesh. The love of God is beautiful which anoints a lowly woman to speak the Word. Jesus is the central figure. God lifted woman up and used her to bring forth Jesus. Adam was first but He came by woman. It is the woman more than the man that appears in the redemption story. Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:4-5; Luke 1:26-30; Luke 1:42.
The incarnation of the Word gives the women freedom to preach, to minister, to speak publicly and to defend the Word of God. This is one of the theological implications of the doctrine of incarnation.
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  #1035  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:04 AM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Something so very special happened to a woman. She carried Grace and Truth. The only time the glory of God was totally encased in flesh was by a virgin girl named Mary. For the Bible says “that holy thing” referring to the fetus of Jesus Christ was the New Testament Ark of the Covenant. The Holiest of Holies lay nestled safely in her womb. The first time the mercy seat would ever be touched as human form would be touched by Mary. She embraced it and cradled it in her arms - the very Word of life.
The man ruling over the woman is not natural (original state of things), it is abnormal - a result of sin. It is like death. Death is not natural, it is abnormal - a result of sin. I’ve heard people say that some person died a natural death. Death may be common, but it is not natural. God planned that we should live forever, so death is not natural. One day it will be swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:55). The man has governed the woman ever since the fall so it may sound common and seem natural but that was not God’s original plan.
Not in domestic life, but a spiritual view point concerning spiritual things. In the first resurrection the situation above mentioned will be mended.
The woman was put under a divine order to be subject to her husband. We all know that, and no godly woman would disagree. Paul’s teaching on a woman’s obedience to the husband is based on the precept of loving his wife as Christ loved the church. He gave His life for it.
Paul recognized and taught that men and women are heirs together in grace. I Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and all have been - all made to drink into one Spirit. Ephesians 6-8: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall receive of the Lord, Whether he be bond or free. Colossians 3:10-11: And have put on the new man, Which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcison, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
And let the peace of God rule in your heart, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord (Colossians 3:15-16).
It is interesting to note that God provided for Adam a “helpmeet” (help meet). Meet also means suitable so, a help suitable for him. It is only where true Christianity is practiced that the woman attains to such a position as the helper or equal of man in the presence of the Lord. In lands where darkness reigns, woman is the slave, the chattel of man. The Hebrew word helpmeet means, the exact counterpart of himself, or the exact formulation of the other.
God did not create Eve to be Adam’s servant, but created her to be an equal companion. When I say equal I mean equal is worth not equal in order. God created another being like Adam for companionship. Even when God created the animals, fowls, and fish, the females were not slaves to their male counterparts. This requires equality of mutuality. The two earthlings would share the same tasks and responsibilities. Genesis 1:28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The Hebrew term “eler” translated as “helper” does carry a connotation of assistance, but whether the help comes from a superior or an inferior cannot be determined without context. The term describing what the woman does for Adam can also refer to what God does for the people (Psalm 33:20; 54:4; 70:5; 79:9; 109:26; 115:9-1-1). Clearly this kind of help does not denote servitude or subservience.
This term does not imply that the woman was in any way inferior to the man or the human creature. The word simply ascribes a beneficial relationship between two parties in which one helps the other. There is no sense in which the helper is subordinate to the one in need of help. If the man is superior, why would he need any help at all from one who is inferior. Isn’t it usually the inferior that requires help from the superior? As a doctor who is superior in medical knowledge reaches out to help an inferior, his sickly patient.
The word “helper” translates better as “Partner” since it is used in the Old Testament to denote an agent of equal or even superior strength. God is the only other entity to whom the Old Testament applies the word. For example: Psalm 46:1, “A time of help in trouble”, Deuteronomy 33:26, “Rides the heaven to your rescue”, and Psalm 70:5, “My helper, my Savior, Yahweh.” I am not saying the woman is above man I am only saying as helper she is not a slave.
The women in the Old Testament had a tremendous disadvantage. As we continue to read God’s Word, we can slowly see the dignity of the woman being restored. Even with the devil furiously fighting against her, there were occasions when she rose above her disadvantages showing a marvelous manifestation of courage and, on several occasions exercising notable ministries.
We may want to hide from these stories. They are sometimes unpleasant in the extreme. They raise issues we may wish to avoid or deny. Yet they are stories of the lives of women who lived as we live in an abusive, even hostile world. We will study stories that speak the truth bringing the light of day into a darkened world, uncovering sins - that permeated lives.
The Bible tells about women used in leadership and their proclamation of faith. There have always been women who transcended the boundaries that their society placed upon them. There have always been women whose faith motivated them to acts of courage and to powerful ministries that made them known and felt. These stories teach us undeniable truth.
Women can be and should be effective servants of God in every spiritual dimension. Women of the Old Testament faith were preachers, proclaimers, wealthy and powerful supporters, prophetesses, military heroes and judges.
These ancient women of faith were average people with normal lives who found ways to serve God in every facet of their lives. We need to shake aside the shackles of bureaucratic structures, which chain the tongues of over half the Christian believers.
The problem that women preachers face today is not the lack of God’s call but traditions which men have developed that resist her call. Eternity alone will reveal the extent of the influence of women whose spirit came to rejoice in God their Savior and who, having discovered the well of life, left their water pots to go and tell of the gospel story.
When Jesus entered upon His earthly ministry, women intently responded to His teachings, sympathized with Him in His darkest hours and found in Him their benefactor and friend. Women were the last to leave the cross, first at the tomb on Christ’s resurrection day, and the first to proclaim the glorious news of His victory over the grave.
In the annals of the early church, women are likewise notable for their spiritual devotion, fidelity, in teaching the Word of God, and sacrificial support of God’s servants. Their faith and prayers were mingled with those of the apostles in preparation for Pentecost and through out Christian era. The church owes more than it realizes to the prayers, loyalty and gifts of its female members. From the time when women labored with Paul in the gospel (Philippians 4:3), religious leaders have been dependent upon the miniseries of women. Gifted and consecrated women figure prominently in the labors of Paul. Owing much to the Redeemer for her spiritual freedom and ennoblement, woman has endeavored to pay her debt in unreserved devotion to Him who was born of a woman.
Bible women form the most remarkable portrait gallery of women preachers in existence. Many of them are among the immortals, whose records shine brightly for us in God’s biography of humanity.
One of the reasons that religious leaders were against Jesus was that He did not accept the Jewish traditions that were accepted by almost everyone else. For example, Jesus healed on the Sabbath, dined with sinners, and talked with women who were not of the Jewish race. He not only talked with them, but also taught them - something unheard of in His day. Jesus sent His disciples to gather corn on the Sabbath (Mark 2:3-28). He healed on the Sabbath; He broke many of their rules proving that traditions of men are not the laws of God!
Christ seemly considered Himself Lord of “traditions”. Whenever tradition hinders or prevents the work of Christ, it is necessary to dismiss that tradition.
Paul taught the Galatians freedom and liberty in the Spirit. In Christ there is no racial or ethnic superiority. No culture or class superiority, no gender superiority (Galatians 3:28). Paul taught the gifts are for all (I Corinthians 12:27-28; II Corinthians 5:20).
Women like men can pray and prophesy in the congregation. By prophesying, Paul meant intelligible preaching that built up the faith of the church.
When tradition hinders or prevents the work of Christ, it is necessary to alter that tradition. The perpetuation of a tradition that no longer serves humanity but dictates to how one should do something then thwarts the purposes of God’s church. It is then the tradition is in conflict with the will of God.
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  #1036  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:09 AM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

I translated this from a booket wrote many years ago in Portuguese..I still feel the same...

I am sincere in expressing what I have written and quoted here. I know that there are many diverse opinions about the woman’s place in the kingdom of God. Do not feel if you differ with me that I count you an enemy for all our human opinions no matter how much we think the Bible backs them we could be wrong. We are all fallable. Just as strong as I feel the things I have expressed on these few sheets of paper I am sure there are those that feel opposite opinions with equal fervor. We are often reminded that we see through a glass darkly and only as light shines upon our path can we see the more perfect day.
I am a background person. I neither desire or like the floodlights. It has been my joy to bring to birth many works in Brazil and slip into the pews among the people. I do not like platforms or pulpits.
Many years ago I heard a message entitled, “The bride in combat boots”. I have never forgot that we are in a constant battle for souls. We have one common enemy:the devil. From his dark kingdom come millions of spirits that we fight against.
It is important that every godly woman understand that we are not trying to outdo men in their persuit of the kingdom, neither are we trying to take their place (at least this author is not) for as the church goes on to perfection I personally believe that God will raise up many godly men that will be real leaders for us sisters to follow. I sure don’t mind someone going ahead helping make my way easier. But at the same time I believe a God fearing man would take note of a sister that would feel a message, a job, or a calling from the Lord.

But the fruit of the Spirit that which the Holy Spirit produces it is not without design so please do not think that I am promoting contents without form, design without a blueprint. As we study the lives of both Old and New Testament characters we will get a glimpse into the hearts of those whose call within them burned as a flame and their imprints on life forever changed the course of history.

Pride is a terrible sin. It is self-exaltation; it’s presumption; it’s an uplifting of self; it’s a pompous, arrogant swelling of self-worth and that is what usually hinders all of us in seeing the gifts God has bestowed on others. Instead of realizing we need one another the devil would like to have us pulling against one another and thus the coming kingdom is delayed.

May God melt our hearts together and the things we do not quite understand may we treat them as something that God has yet to reveal to all of us. May we tread softly on ground that angels reverence and may the indwelt presence of the Lord guide us on until we reach perfection.





May His will be done upon the earth; that His laws might become our laws, His ways our ways, His love our love, and His peace our peace.

I hope something that I can say will bring healing to wounded sisters and understanding to brothers to see most of us handmaidens as yes, a weaker vessel, that are only trying to help lift a very heavy load.
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  #1037  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:13 AM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

I hope that my spirit can always be right. I have been in unconfortable (my word) circumstances that required my voice...I hope that I have always protrayed the right spirit even under and among difficult circumstances...
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  #1038  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:29 AM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowas View Post
With all due respect for Sister Alvear and others, I mean nothing harmful, insulting or hurting. If a woman is preaching or teaching over men, she has assumed a position of authority over "the man" any man is "the man". No man has the authority to give to the woman the position over the man, any man. It is good to obey one's husband, but the order of the church is clearly laid out in the Bible. Everyone has their equally, but different roles as ordainded by God and also compliments the order He created in the different roles of "the man" and "the woman".
Nothing personal towards any woman, but it is apparently Gods plan as per the Epistles.
I really donīt think telling the story of Namum to people that had (for most part) never heard was taking authority over anyone....
Just as the manīs authority comes from Christ the womanīs authority comes from her husband.
I think our people would tell you we all obey Brother Alvear. He is our leader. I can assure you of one thing as his wife that he is not big on women that run their mouth and he detests sissy men however he was born in a third world country where many gospel voices belong to women...His sister in-law brought the Jesus name message to them although she was not a preacher in American terms she was a missionary...his mother never learned to read or write as with many older South American ladies but was a champion for the cause of Christ..and she was always called in Chile, Pastora with much respect.
South American men are usually known as very Macho men and for them to really look up to a woman requires being a LADY in their eyes at all times…I say this not bragging however I enjoy deep respect among our people and among many other missions in Brazil.
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  #1039  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:12 PM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Many people have assumed that women were not given these more public
gifts—and silence was the law of the day....will you tell me how any woman can be silent and speak in tongues...sing, testify, prophecy and use many of the gifts of the spirit...how can she teach a song? teach a abible verse, oreven cry out to the Lord????

IF she cannot preach she cannot recieve the Holy Ghost....silent means silent ....not some manīs deciding when the silent applies...lol...

Acts 2:18, “…both men and women…shall prophesy. So whatever prophecy may mean men and women do it...and the place to do it is IN THE church so that all (men and women) can judge...
The Bible talks about " the words of this prophecy" speaking of the BIBLE itself...
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  #1040  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:13 PM
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

In Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe, a woman, was a “diakonon” of the
church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated “servant”9 here, is translated
“minister” in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25 “Of this church I was made
a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I
might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,” NAS
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Women, do this for yourselves. Men, do this for the women in your life... Tina Fellowship Hall 16 07-26-2007 02:20 PM

 
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