Can Women Pastor ?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I give. You won't be honest enough to say you are flying by the seat of your pants on your limited knowledge of hermeneutics and the more you respond the more ignorant you sound.

Let's see: You're vaguely familiar w/ Daniel Wallace, claim that apologetics "have nothing to do" w/ a polemical disscussion, enquire about logical fallacies....then claim that "I" have limited hermeneutic comprehension???? I see, you've apparently "arrived"?? Apparently NOT. Next.....

Context is doctrinal? I about spit my water out of my nose. Context is neutral, it is the framework behind the so-called "literal text" and it gives the text meaning.

And my eyes got as wide a saucers when I read this. "Context is neutral"??? You apparently don't understand context. Context is the overall subject matter that the writer is dealing w/....which you claim is "neutral"?? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeew! I suppose Paul's teachings on faith were then "neutral"?? Man, this just gets worse & worse! Next.....

A word changes according to its context. It also helps us understand authorial intent. You are awkwardly pitting exegetical context against literary, syntactical context. I have no idea why.

NOt at all, for about the 6th time now, I'll say again that context most certainly plays a part in exegesis. In fact, I'd say that context is one of the primary interpretation rules. But, I've said this for about 6 times now, so I'm sure you'll simply ignore this also???

Trinitarian? Calvnist? Non-Christian Spirit? (Have you read a thing you've said to others on here. Not exactly God come in humble flesh material).

Oh brother, so you obviously are reluctant to affirm your doctrinal posture...next.....

I think I've engaged you more than most on here. We took a tangent because when cocky people start spouting out things (especially posers), it's cynically fun to exploit that. You, my dear "Watson," have been exploited

Tks. for the smile this morning. This coming from someone who isn't even "terribly familiar" w/ possibly the greatest Greek scholar/textual critic of our day, has not even read Hartill's infamous book on Hermeneutics, derides logical fallacies that he makes repeatedly...then says "You've been exposed as a poser"??? Yea' man....next......

To the subject at hand - the question is to wonder if Paul was reinforcing an already-existent universal prohibition against women teachers, creating a new one, or determine what situation he was responding to (the complex nature of epistles).

Now we're getting somewhere. As I've pointed out, the epistle was addressing church order, as it plainly says. And it's from this perspective that Paul commands, "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man." He then appeals to the creation model to butress his doctrine.

Honestly here, who would simply allow this text [& I Cor. 14:34] to speak for itself & conclude that God calls women into His authoritative 5-fold ministry? This is precisely the thing that he was forbidding.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

4th time, 20th time... Good grief

You are an impatient little man, aren't you

Nice ad hominem....................

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Actualy preach is not the primary definition.
G2980
λαλέω
laleō
lal-eh'-o
A prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, that is, utter words: - preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare G3004.

Sure does seem funny the word preach hear sur does stand out like a sore thumb.

You one of 2 options w/ this word: Utter words, or preach. Tell me, can a woman pray in church, correct her childresn receive the Holy Spirit? Of course she can.

So what's the only other definition/translation? P-R-E-A-C-H!

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Do you really believe what you told that woman? That if her mother was lost, that someone else was lost for not going to her? And did you tell the woman anything else? What was her reaction? Did it comfort her to know that someone else was also being punished?

I did not know her mother died until after I had told them how important I felt it was to be a christian...You can imagine the pain I felt when she told me about her mother..I wept and wept...
Timmy, it is the knowledge that I feel responsible for my generation that keeps me pshingonand tellingthe story of Jesus.

The lady and all her family today are christians...in fact today in that city we have 3 churches..
We all know that eternal destiny is in the hands of a merciful God however I must work and do my part.

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by rdp

No problemoooo. Only problem on my end is that I don't own a home computer & have to quote from memory in the library. Thus, I don't have all of my study material right in front of me [such as Lexicons, References, etc.]. Moreover, my time is often limited to 30 min. on library computers.

Having said all of that, I've already anticipated this & will gladly interact W/ Bro. Scheel, so long as he keeps it civil/respectful. From what I know of him, I would agree w/ his every doctrine save his "women preacher" doctrine.

it just bothers me the lack of respect you showed ...after all he is a bishop..
Did you answer me where David Adams teaches or what school he went to? I am impressed that David is a greek professor. (really)

we were just eating with them a few months ago..had a lovely visit.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Since I know both men I find it strange you would mention names... this bothers me...davids own son works out of a church that believes in women preachers...david´s son has preached for us and I showed my slides at his church...



I have known David for over 35 years I have no knowledge that he is a greek professor...I have read some of his writings. i GREW UP in the same church MARY did. Our pastor´s wife
sister HOLMES preached to us in many church services.
and he is a smart person in books and I deeply love him and Mary however
DR SCHEELS is an oxford doctor...I have said many times I am ony a missionary and I think of souls in that matter.

I am afraid you crossed the line using names...

YOU are the one who initially brought up Dr. Scheel's book, not me. And David Adams told me I could refer to him [I've already told you this], as he is strong against women preachers in the church. Yes, he taught Greek at a Bible college in Parkersburg for several semesters.

And how many times do I have to say that I greatly respect Bro. Scheel??? Yet you just plod along as if I never said a thing???

you may have supported us and I deeply appreciate it however I know up close the cost of living on the mission field over 41 years...doing without, hunger, thrist, sleeping in the far backlands among pagan people in hammocks, I know the terror of vampire bats flying around me while trying to sleep, watching snakes in the rafters ...being bit by spiders larger than my hand on more than one occasion...I know the feeling of eating fook covered by roaches, and no where to take bathes for days...I know about riding hot stinking bues, sleeping in bus statioons, climbing mountains to reach souls...
I know about taking baths in streams full os alligators and ancondas...

And to be totally honest w/ you, I feel ashamed as I read this that a woman has done more than I have. But, if I felt that God called me to this field of labor, I would certainly be willing to go. I've Pastored 2 churches & have been evangelizing for a few years, though things are slow right now.

In sum, you have my utmost respect for the sacrifices you've made.

On and on I could go...it is not a contest to see who is right or wrong...It is a story about the call of God on my life...and even now it has been over a year since we have had a car...I do know some about the cost of the call...

I'm only affirming what the Scriptures clearly teach. Do you cut your hair? I doubt it. Well, I'm just quoting from the same Book!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

She knew how to use both pen and sword; however, her greatest force was not human force, it was a God -given force. In everything she did, she depended upon God. Deborah’s song of victory belongs to some of the oldest, most beautiful poems of Hebrew history.
As Solomon said, Deborah’s life was impressive. Even though God had placed her first in a song, she reserved space for others. Barak and Jael were carefully mentioned. She only considered herself a mother in Israel. Deborah is one of the most distinguished women of Bible history because of her character, her leadership abilities and her poems. Certainly she lived an interesting life; the secret of her life was in Jehovah God.
She showed what a woman could do when God takes over and is in full control. Can you imagine a woman governing the people of God? See Judges 4:8; here is a woman governing (ruling) Israel in the time of the Judges. Even though the devil was fighting against her each step of the way, here is a woman that rises above her disadvantages. A notable fact that a man was happy to follow the leadership of woman!
Under her capable leadership, Israel experienced forty years of peace and prosperity. I think one of the reasons we have stories such as Deborah’s governing Israel is that God wants us to understand the opportunities of women in the New Testament and especially in the millennium.
What did it mean for Deborah to judge the nation of Israel? The concept of a judge to the Hebrews was one that governed. It means vindicate, judge, punish, govern, litigate, defend, plead, reason and rule (Strong's #8199). It also meant a bringer of justice.
Deborah is considered one of the wisest women in the Old Testament. All her activities didn’t hinder her from being a good wife. As judge, she exercised authority in legal matters. As prophetess, she proclaimed the Word of God under divine inspiration. As poet, she wrote poems; she was a gifted woman. She exercised political leadership, military leadership and religious leadership. It would not be an exaggeration to suggest that many men filled the post Deborah occupied with fewer results. A woman that occupied such a great official position could not be inferior to man.
Some have said there is a difference between a prophetess and a preacher. Young’s Analytical Concordance on page 71, tells us that the Hebrew word "Nibah" is a female preacher. So at the death of wicked Ehud, God raised up a woman, a nibah to lead His people.
Deborah was like Joan of Arc, who twenty-seven centuries later rode in front of the French Army and led them to victory. Both women came from nowhere, and led armies of ten thousands of men to victory over their oppressors-Joan of Arc at Orleans and Deborah at Mt. Tabor in Northern Israel. England will never forget the bold deeds of Margaret of Anjov, who was at the head of the northern forces that swept over that country like a wind, destroying armies and tearing down thrones.
If we were to give ears to some "modern day" teaching, Deborah would have never ruled Israel. With or without "modern day approval," God used Deborah as His mouthpiece. Since when does God need someone to counsel Him and tell Him whom to call to do His work?
Deborah was the one God chose. She through obedience brought victory. Deborah had forty years of peace even though her only human allies were two tribal groups of soldiers and one cowardly general.
In Deborah, we find the leadership skills of Moses, the military powers of Joshua, the God of Abraham and the poetic ability of David all combined in one lowly woman in whom the mouth of God rested. Beneath the gore, the story of Deborah and Jael demonstrates that courage and genius knows no gender. Jewish tradition says that Deborah was keeper of the tabernacle lamp.
Her name means "a bee". Surely she was a bee to the enemies of God. This story illustrates the Hebrew belief that God could communicate messages of vital importance through either men or women. No character in the Old Testament stands out in bolder relief than Deborah-prophetess, ruler, warrior, and proctor.
Meroz was cursed because they came not to the aid of the Lord - not helping Deborah was not helping the Lord. Helping Deborah was helping the Lord!

How does any of this invalidate Paul's clear teachings to the NT church in I Tim. 2, or I Cor. 14???

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

it just bothers me the lack of respect you showed ...after all he is a bishop..

How many times have I said how much I honor Bro. Scheel????? Are you not reading my responses? Or, do you enjoy painting me as "disrespectful" in order to invalidate what I say?


Did you answer me where David Adams teaches or what school he went to? I am impressed that David is a greek professor. (really)

we were just eating with them a few months ago..had a lovely visit.

Bro. Adams is one of the greatest scholars that I know & he also highly honors you [as I do] for the sacrifices that you've made.

[rdp]

Have to be away for a day or so. Will try to look in Thurs., weather permitting. Blessings.........................

[Sister Alvear]

Deborah´s words...King James Bible
Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: the LORD made me have dominion over the mighty.