Can Women Pastor ?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by rdp

Since there's really nothing of any substance to respond to in these posts, just speculation [not Scripture], I'll just make a few brief points.

I read David Norris's article & could not believe the sloppy scholarship, w/ virtually zero biblical support [since there is none regarding women preacher's]. My wife, who is not a scholar, quickly picked out his errors. I wrote a critique of the article out to the side.

The reason I've quit responding is that I've said the same thing over & over, & just get the same ol' responses. It's like telling someone that 2 + 2 = 4 & they just keep saying, 5!

I've repeatedly pointed out that I Tim. was explicitly written, "so that you may know how to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church...." I mean, how much plainer can it possibly get????? Yet, ya'll persisit that it talking about the supposed "home life"? This is intellectual dishonesty.

Regarding I Cor. 14:34-35, Daniel Wallace [who is probably the greatest Greek scholar of our day, and a tenacious textual critic] affirms that this passage is accurate & belongs in the canon, as do virtually all reputable textual critics. How could the Corinthian's be quoting from a Jewish source/Talmud w/ "Let your women keep silent IN THE CHURCH.....", when "the church" did not even exist at the time of the writing of the Talmud?????

Rom. 16 & the supposed "deaconess" is not a direct translation from the Greek [since this is merely on of several meanings], but rather a theological interpretaion.. Indeed, most translations render this term simply as "servant". It's the same Greek word as the "servants" who filled the waterpots for Christ, so now are we to somehow assume that they were "preachers"????? This is swatting at shadows in order to validate a preconceived agenda.

Moreover, I've given lexical definitions of prophesy in I Cor. 11, & demonstrated that prophesy is absolutely NOT a sermon the Scriptures. And, we NEVER once see it used as such in Scripture. But rather, it's literal/primary definition is "to foretell" as seen in Strong's, etc. "To speak BY INSPIRATION" [indicating spontaneity as opposed to a premeditated sermon], is a secondary definition only applicable in certain contexts. Will not just sit here & repeat myself ad nauseum.

And, I've NEVER even alluded to a bldg. as being the church....since I do not believe that, and I've already pointed that out. In sum, I maintain the biblical position against the notion of "women preachers," along w/ the great Apostle Paul. I pray that you will get honest w/ Scripture, since this is what will judge you in eternity. Blessings....................

Where do you get that preaching means a sermon?

Your approach to others ("since nothing of substance, etc") is rather arrogant, and I think it's quite humorous that you can be so smug in your opinion while the majority percentage of Christian scholars disagree with you. Surely, that's at least enough reason to change your tone a hair.

Do tell what was "sloppy scholarship" in Norris' article. I thought it was well-written, at the same time realizing the page limitation. As far as your pal's opinion of 1 Cor 14, he's the foremost Greek scholar?? Really?? Why do you make such claims? I know several, whom I've read, including Gordon Fee, who believe differently. The verse does not fit the scope and nature of the letter, it jumps out of the text out of context, and it doesn't sound Pauline. We can accept it since we have no manuscripts that exclude it, but it's a pretty solid theory that this portion of the letter were likely added to the letter by someone else who thought this issue was important. Either way, your distinction of women prophesying, testifying but drawing a fence around preaching but what you call a "sermon" is quite an interesting definition for an unbiblical word.

[Sister Alvear]

Glad God has the last say...

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Where do you get that preaching means a sermon?

In common ecclessiological vernacular, what does one think when someone refers to "preaching"? Besides, are you proposing that a sermon is not preaching????

Your approach to others ("since nothing of substance, etc") is rather arrogant, and I think it's quite humorous that you can be so smug in your opinion while the majority percentage of Christian scholars disagree with you. Surely, that's at least enough reason to change your tone a hair.

Not one iota! You commit the "Argumentum ad Populum" fallacy above. The populace does NOT equal orthodoxy, nor orthopraxy. I affirm Sola-Scriptura & Totala Scriptura.

Do tell what was "sloppy scholarship" in Norris' article. I thought it was well-written, at the same time realizing the page limitation.

Norris also commits the Argumentum ad Populum fallacy & his angle regarding I Tim. 2 was simply ridiculous & a total violation of context concerning the suppossed reference to "widows"....which is found in chp. 5!

As far as your pal's opinion of 1 Cor 14, he's the foremost Greek scholar?? Really??

Never said he was "my pal". That is supplied by your fertile imagination. Furthermore, you reveal your lack of studiousness regarding Wallace. Do some homework on him & get back w/ me.

Why do you make such claims? I know several, whom I've read, including Gordon Fee, who believe differently. The verse does not fit the scope and nature of the letter, it jumps out of the text out of context, and it doesn't sound Pauline.

More unsupported assertions, not evidence. I see where the verse fits fine in Pauline thought, esp. in connection w/ I Tim. 2. [which I wish you'd deal w/].

We can accept it since we have no manuscripts that exclude it, but it's a pretty solid theory that this portion of the letter were likely added to the letter by someone else who thought this issue was important. Either way, your distinction of women prophesying, testifying but drawing a fence around preaching but what you call a "sermon" is quite an interesting definition for an unbiblical word.

Ughhhh, say what??? I gave lexical definitions, what are talking about? Regarding sermons, that's simply how many refer to the common ecclesiological practice. Besides, do you believe in the rapture? Yes? Then that's also an "unbiblical word". Be consistent.

Out of pocket for about a week, but plan to try & spend more time on here if possible.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Glad God has the last say...

Yes, & He will judge by His written Word, as I understand it.

[Sister Alvear]

...and His written word commands us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature...sadly while we debate who is to preach the world rushes blindly to hell.

[Sister Alvear]

While the church leaders agree all must hear and obey to be saved, the clergy fuss about who tells the story. What difference does it make which gender pulls a burning person from the flame? Or what difference does it make that a man or woman, male or female, saves the drowning persons from a torrid river? Did the horrified soldiers care who answered the call that icy March afternoon in 1869 when Ida Lewis responded with haste to rescue the crying voices from the choppy waves at Lime Rock Lighthouse in Newport. One of the drowning men lost hope when he saw that it was a woman who came rowing out to save them. However, he was soon to change his mind after the job was successfully accomplished. She had fierce strength that wasn’t hers alone. Later, a newspaper recorded that she said that the Lord Almighty gave it to her when she needed it the most. (Women of the Lights, Candice Fleming, Albert Whitman & Co., Morton Grove, IL, 1996, 21.)

[Sister Alvear]

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

[Sister Alvear]

Our Lord speaks without any limitation or restriction. The command is GO YE....this command is given to every believer...If we do not do this we are disobeying a commandment of our Lord...

[Sister Alvear]

. Romans 16:12 Salute Trephine and Tryphosa, who labor in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which labored much in the Lord. Trephine, and Tryphosa, women, and who labored much in the Lord. These are all women; yet the same apostle that wrote I Corinthians 14:34 said in I Corinthians 16:16, that ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboreth. (Be in subjection, RV) to everyone that helpeth with us and laboreth.

So it behoves us to rightly divide the scriptures...while you might not want a woman to be your pastor there are millions yea millions that women have ministered to over the years.... especially on the mission field.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by rdp

Ughhhh, say what??? I gave lexical definitions, what are talking about? Regarding sermons, that's simply how many refer to the common ecclesiological practice. Besides, do you believe in the rapture? Yes? Then that's also an "unbiblical word". Be consistent.

Out of pocket for about a week, but plan to try & spend more time on here if possible.

Look if you want to be cocky and dismissive about it, your speech and debate vocabulary and throw-ins of the word "context" do nothing to show us how smart you are.

I was making a specific point about your hair splitting between preaching and sermonizing. Think it back over and maybe you'll catch that.

This Argumentum ad Populum rebuttal to everything is frankly old. My point was, and still is, if the majority of scholars that have examined these subjects, as well as the traditional and historical understanding conflict with your opinions, perhaps you should check your tone, and approach this with a little more humility than trying to come on here and shove your forceful opinion down every throat on AFF. I'm happy to interact with you despite a varying opinion like that. Cocky people just make me want to argue, and it detracts from real discussion.

Also, please elaborate further on your criticism of Norris' "sloppy scholarship." Be specific if you can. You like to type long responses, so you shouldn't mind that request

Why is Priscilla mentioned before Aquilla? What was their role? What about Nymphas?

My comments about 1 Cor 14 -- you dismiss it so quickly that it's hard to take you serious. Assertions? The evidence many scholars cite are not mere assertions. The topic of women being silent does not fit anywhere in the topic outline or scope of the Corinthian letter. I think it's a theory to consider. Even with it there, it must be reconciled with 1 Cor 11, where praying and prophesying are directed toward women. Nevertheless, what of Norris' suggestion that Text is dealing with husband and wives, as it says explicitly? Then there is the idea that Paul is citing a Corinthian question. Others suggest that the overall issue of disorderly prophesy and tongues is related to women that called out to their husbands in a disorderly way and took Paul's egalitarian "there is no male nor female" all the way until there was a violation of social order -- where there was no distinction of genders at their gatherings. But I'm anxious to hear a discussion on 1 Tim 2 further.

I try to reconcile that with those who helped lead the church in the NT that were, in fact, women.

If you wish to berate my intelligence, have at it. It only shows your own lacking. But if you wish to use your knowledge on this subject, and as you understand it, to interact on the points, then please do. But get off your dismissive 3-argument rebuttal. Because an argument is popular does not mean it's right, but it certainly lends much more credibility in the process of debate.

As far as your Greek pal, I won't research him. I don't care to. I just found it funny that you tried to use him as your trump card "expert," when in fact, there are hundreds of scholars that have written positions on this subject that would be in disagreement.