Pastoral Authority Part 898,230

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

I think we fail to couple this passage with Ep.4 Yes there are those that God raises up that seem to hold a higher position take Paul. But even Paul said follow me... and in this passage Paul includes the ministry in the same place as gifts of the spirit that any can reach. Kind of precludes the idea of the ministry being held higher in position.

Actually, I think 1 Cor 12 is a great support for those who oppose the "everyone is a minister, and the church has no 'clergy'" argument.

#1 The word for gifts in 1 Cor 12 is charisma. In Ephesians it's doxa and in another instance, charis. Small variation but critical in how we understand it. Charisma refers specifically to spiritual gifts. Consider also the preceding vs 4:
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. This includes gifts and types of service.

What's important to know about 1 Cor 12 is that he is correcting the abuse of the gift of tongues, where many in the body flaunted that gift as being superior. The "more excellent way" (v31) is picked up in Chapter 14, which is about prophecy. Chapter 13 is an interpolation that further builds Paul's argument against this abuse of tongues -- that the foundation of all God's gifts in the body is love.


Let's look at the context for Eph:

It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

The word "some" here, as well as the gifts listed are in a very personal sense, not referring to a general gift, but to a general role or person "gifted" to the church. The ministry to the church is done by a gift available to anyone, but it is not enabled to everyone. One is called. One is devoted to the gift. Though modern translations put a comma after vs 12 "to prepare God's people." This comma changes the way the entire verse is read. Is the ministry limited to be an empowerment for the body to do all the ministry, or is it just one of the roles, that continue to include "for works of service, so that the body is built up." Some strong arguments for the comma here that are quite compelling against the more modern translations. I think the KJV gets this one right.

Couple both those verses with the ones I left you already:
1 Tim 5:17 "those that labor in preaching and teaching..."

1 Thes 5:12 "those who labor among you..."

In terms of value to the body, not one role should be boasted over another. But ignoring obvious distinctions of some who are specifically devoted to particular ministry is a tragedy.

[Jeffrey]

The Reformers, who propagated the "priesthood of all believers" didn't believe the saints were to replace those who were distinctly serving as leaders over the flock of God. Rather, they saw the POB as the priestly duty of consecration & intercession of others to be incumbent of all believers. The believer's participation in the churches during the Reformation was even colder than most "pew sitters" in Pentecostal churches today.

Just some perspective from the 15th Century.

Also, the particular requirements for overseers in 1 Tim 3:2, Titus 1:7-9 should that Eph 4 is not reducing the function of ministry to just "equipping the saints for ministry." The comma makes a world of difference. KJV is right on this one.

[Godsdrummer]

Jeffery
I know this will sound like I am changeing my thinking, but what I am saying is God did not leave just one incharge, all of the verses you have given speak in the plural.
God gave some...
Those that labor....
Those that teach and preach...
And yes I do see them in a higher position than saints. But this does not mean that they must hold themselves above the saints to garner respect. Or to fulfill the work God has called them to. God intends for there to be room in the local assembly for all the works of the ministry and gifts of the spirit to be used and not just by the one that has set himself up as Pastor.

By the way I come accross the way I do to test the thoughts I am having and to get others to look at things from a new point of view. Not to change anyones way of thinking unless the truly see something from God.
God Bless