Read Rom. 16:1-2 for what the literal text says. Pls. see Strong's & W. E. Vine's Expository Greek definitions of "servant" & "helper" & do not be selective in which definitions you choose [as you've done above]. Word definitions are applicable in light of context, & the literal text says that Pheobe was a "H-E-L-P-E-R". Pls. provide for us where the text actually says that she was a "preacher":____________________? Again, you have assumed your pre-conceived notions into the text that never states the same.
The Priscilla argument is downright silly. Simply because she's mentioned in a home Bible study [w/ her husband, by the way], she's now a "preacher"????????? Talk about jumping thru hoops!
Where did Deborah, of Huldah "preach" a Biblical sermon to the Israelites? They both spontaneously "Prophesied" of God's future plans [which, according to I Cor. 11 is fine], not "preached sermons". Again, you're importing your own ideas into the text...NEVER stated by the same. Do you not fear God to tamper w/ His written Word like that?
Still waiting on you to deal w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14:34, I Tim. 3, etc. Until you do so, I'll just assume that you cannot. Pls. spare me your theology, I'm only interested in the actual text itself.
Sis. Alvear's devotion to the cause of Chrsit honestly moves me, yet, I have to RESPECTFULLY disagree w/ her Biblically. As far as eternal judgement goes, God will be her judge, but as for me & my house, we're sticking w/ the Book....feel safer that way.
Succourer. Read the Strong's definition I posted and weep. She was also a helper, but Paul specifically mentions succourer. That's specific for only Phoebe. No one else in the Bible is mentioned by anyone to have that title.
Do you know the definition of 'preacher'? It's someone sharing the good news. Here's the definition for you.
Quote:
khruvssw
Transliterated Word
Kerusso
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
kay-roos'-so Verb
Definition
1. to be a herald, to officiate as a herald
1. to proclaim after the manner of a herald
2. always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed
2. to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done
3. used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers
Are you going to claim that women cannot do the above? What scripture do you have to support that claim?
Oh, and in case you didn't notice, there's nothing mentioned above in regard to a church building, pulpit, and that it's only for a man to do.
Did you like how the Bible rates Miriam right up there with Aaron and Moses? I bet you don't.
As for Deborah, ever wonder why even priests, who were also prophets, called on WOMEN to give them a Word from God? It's nice how you like to sweep away the importance of their words which became scripture...the very Word of God. Huldah was called upon as well by both priests and kings. Ever wonder why God didn't just tell the priests what He wanted the kings to know?? I mean, God can't use women to share the gospel or His death, burial, and resurrection, but when He has a prophecy proclaiming doom and gloom, women are good enough, right?
Preach sermons? Scripture says women can't do that or that only men can? Where???
Of course, I'm sure you are one of those men that don't allow women, including your wife, to teach you anything. That would be against God's Word, wouldn't it???
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Heavenlyone: Where did Miriam EVER "preach" from the Law to the Isrealites. Read the song of Moses account closely, it SAYS, that the "W-O-M-E-N went after her"....not the men. Hmmmmmm.
Out of pocket for about a week soon. Will try to respond when I can.
You can't scratch that verse out of the Bible.
Well, maybe you can out of yours, but I won't out of mine.
And who said one had to preach to be a leader? YOU said women can't do that, remember? I showed you where God called her to lead Israel along with her brothers. She didn't lead just women, that's referring to when they were singing in the streets. Good grief. But both men and women looked to her for leadership. Read the accounts of when her and Aaron were punished by God for coming against Moses. It wasn't just the women looking for her return.
Besides, why did God need her to 'rule' the women anyway? Weren't Aaron and Moses good enough? LOL!
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Jesus sent Mary M. to tell the Good News of the resurrection to all, including the 11 male disciples. I would imagine they received her news with great joy.
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Jesus sent Mary M. to tell the Good News of the resurrection to all, including the 11 male disciples. I would imagine they received her news with great joy.
But that wasn't 'preaching a sermon' behind a pulpit. Big difference, ya know!!! LOL!
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
But that wasn't 'preaching a sermon' behind a pulpit. Big difference, ya know!!! LOL!
they would have had no sermon to preach if it had not been for a woman for they were off in hiding....( I need to run hid in the jungle now)
In 312, when Constantine made Christianity the religion of the empire, the Christian community was caught in a cultural conflict as it moved from worship in house churches where women's leadership was accepted, to worship in public places where women's leadership violated Roman social codes of honor and shame. In the fourth century, male church leaders at the Council of Laodicea suppressed women leaders...then from there we go to the councils of Orange...
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Quotations about Phoebe, most likely from trinitarians, begin outside of the literal text of God's Word & have nothing to do w/ the Biblical record.....which NEVER demonstrates a woman preaching to a mixed congregation. In sum, it's an excercise in [I]eisegesis. What do you do w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14:34....just curious. Besides, how does Paul's sending a letter by a woman [which would be far more easily concealed] validate women preachers???
Your quotations from the supposed "early church" has the earliest as 177 A.D....which is not all that "early." This is precisely the time when the greek apologists began their tampering w/ the truth of God's Word [i.e., Justin, Tertullian, etc.]. Will you also embrace their "multi-personed deity" doctrine? Or, their Logos Christology? Why not?
Besides, how does one being a martyr automatically classify them as "Preachers"? Was every martyr thus considered a "preacher"? At any rate, again, you have appealed outside of the Biblical text...which really has no inspired authority.
Finally, & most importantly, I graciously encourage you look at [& post] Strong's, or W.E. Vine's Greek Expository word definitions of "prophesy" in I Cor. 11. This is the exact same word as "PROPHESY to us, thou Christ, who smote thee." Tell me, did they expect Him to deliver them a sermon from the Scriptures? Biblical prophesy is defined as a spontaneous revealing of the hidden, and the future plans of God for ones life....not a pre-meditated sermon from the Scriptures.
Let me hasten to say that you're devotion to God's cause moves me to a deeper prayer life & desire to do more for God. But, on this one I must have an honest heart w/ the Biblical record....not appeals outside of the written text.
And, my SPECULATION is that God may have sent you where a man refused to go, for the greater cause of lost souls....but that's only my SPECULATION. In the case of where a man is not able [& this is the only time] to preach in a church service on a foreign mission field I do believe that the woman [if capable] should do so for the greater sake of lost souls. But this is merely an anomaly [not normal, nor authoritative], & not the norm.
Will be out of pocket for the next week or so, just checked this real quick....blessings.
Still waiting on that Biblical verse where a woman "preached" to men:__________________.
The text says, nor indicates no such thing about Deborah, or Huldah, of Mary M. by the way. Hmmm, so every woman who tells someone about the ressurrection of Christ is now a "preacher"????????? Have you ever heard of eisegesis? Or the logical fallacy of assumption?
Deborah & Huldah PROPHESIED about what God was going to do...not "preached sermons" to men! Pls. provide for me where they "taught/preached" to men from the Scriptural text [which was actually even brought to Huldah!]
Still waiting on you deal w/ I Tim. 2, & I Cor. 14, which you apparently cannot do. I Tim. was written, "so that you may know how you ought behave yourself IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, which IS THE CHURCH." How much plainer does it get???? Your simply ignorining these God-Breathed passages will not make them disappear. Jesus entered into the synangogue & "taught" the people. Was he preaching? Of course He was. This is the same word that Paul employs in I Tim. 2:12....which he forbids women to do??????????
Consantine was not Biblical Christianity, so any appeal to him supposedly "changing women preaching" needs to be validated in Acts [the true "early church"].
and by long shot I am NOT in any way saying women have to act like men but to say they had no part in spreading the gospel story is far from truth.
I don't believe that anyone has said that, not anyone I've ever
heard anyway., I haven't read any of this thread, tooo long, and I
don't really have to I've 'heard it all' zillions of times before lol
But its only logic that "let every thing that has breath praise the
LORD" just in doing that is like spreading His gospel., so NO...
it cannot be said that women canNOT share the gospel story, I
don't think that that is/was the title of this thread.
THAT SAID..I'm staying OUT., and keep my peace.
__________________ You can tell more about people
by what they say about others...than by what others
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