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  #71  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:55 PM
Conjecture Conjecture is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

Why do you feel the need to answer a question with a question? I've done my research, and naming all the different views and types of law doesn't answer the question. Here are a few variations of Biblical laws also. The 10 Commandments | Relationship to God | Relationship to Other Persons | Law and Justice | Marriage and Divorce | Family Law and Relationships | Animal Regulations | Government and Civil Officers | Feasts and Observances | Capital Law and Offenses | Foreign Relations | Etiquette and Moral Issues | Labor and Work | Food and Health Laws | General Welfare | Economic and Monetary Laws | Personal and Character Traits | Laws Regarding Property | Judgment and Execution of Law | Churches and Ministers | Servants, Employees, Etc. | Warfare and Military Laws |. Your rant on the subject of law is a simple diversion. That’s okay though. I do not wish to debate you on that matter either. For me...it's not up for debate. I know where I stand. The subject of law seems to be central in your walk with God though. Just an observation.

Let me clear something up. When I spoke of "law." What I really meant was, man made standards. Standards on top of salvation. Standards that were set in place by common misconceptions on a litteral translation of certain scripture. Basically, we believe in Acts 2:38 as the plan of salvation. Someone at sometime said: On top of that. Women have to wear skirts, not cut their hair, no makeup and so on and so on...... Whoever that was made it kind of like a law. They made it essential to your salvation. You know as well as I do, that if you pick up one law...you have to take the rest. We can't pick and choose yet we are all guilty of that. I’m just stating a few interpretations. And the Bible is open for that. We must also "seek out our own salvation."


When was the last time you saw a Christian greet another Christian w/a holy kiss? But it's right there in the Bible. I can show you verses in Cor and Thes and in one of Peter's letters that say we should greet each other w/a holy kiss.

Or how about women having to wear head coverings?
Or cursing people who don't love the Lord?
Or selling all your possessions and giving all to the poor?
Or men raising their hands when they pray?
Or slaves having to obey their masters?

These are all commands that appear in the Bible. And yet they are rarely followed. This is because someone somewhere made a decision about those texts; someone decided that Christians didn't have to greet one another with a kiss or wear head coverings or curse people who don't love the Lord.

All of these have been interpreted by someone, whether it was a denomination or a Pastor. Somewhere-somebody engaged in the difficult work of interpretation. Somebody in our history decided certain verses still apply and others do not. What Paul and or Peter gave as a commandment, standard or law to one group of people. Does not mean it was meant for us. Some of those things were for people with certain customs already set in place. This truth about interpreting the Bible extends all the way to the simple reading of it in English. If we don't read the Bible in its original Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic, then we are reading someone's interpretation of the Bible. Just the work of translating requires the translator to make decisions about what the Bible say's. Certain English words do not have an exact Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic equivalent, leaving the translator with a challenge of how to best represent the text using English words. Interpretation demands an intricate balance of conviction and humility.

Here is a quote from you: No, most don't need to be told how to live every week and they already know. They want someone who teaches and confirms what they believe. Because everyone understands forgiveness doesn't mean it doesn't need to be taught and confirmed and conviction brought forth. End Quote.

Those people want someone who teaches and confirms what they believe. If they don't get that, they leave. plain and simple. It's almost like itching ears. If they don't hear Baptism in Jesus Name or Acts 2:38 or standards at least once a month. Out the door they go. Slamming our Church to their new friends at their new place of worship.

What a person is really saying is "As long as you teach MY version of the Bible, I'll have no problem with you." And the more people insist that they are interpreting the Bible the right and only way, the more skeptical I get. It is possible to make the Bible say whatever we want it to, isn't it? How is it that the Bible can be so many different things to so many different people? It's possible to believe all the right doctrines and not live as Jesus teaches us to live.

Truth always leads to more...truth. Because truth is insight into God and God is infinite and he has no boundaries or edges. So truth always has layers and depth and texture.

Maybe God is looking for people who don't just sit there and mindlessly accept whatever comes their way.

I feel that you put too much of your walk in laws. For me...I'll put it in his "Amazing Grace."

As for your post concerning the one stepper issue and how you assume what you think I believe. I’ll get to that later. After that, I think this issue on my personal beliefs and who’s right or wrong should end. You have been very good about judging me on that subject. But I guess that’s okay. You claim its “righteous judgment.” And that makes it Biblical.

Conjecture.
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  #72  
Old 02-14-2009, 11:48 PM
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electric.S10 electric.S10 is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

To throw down the gauntlet is to throw down a a challenge , that is the way I see it , now a gauntlet is used for corporal punishment TWO totally different meanings . Which seems to be the way things are done over there any more . I do not hide behind any fancy title . Anyone in the UPCI from within 100 miles in the Louisville area knows who I am . With that said myself and my family left the Hollis lead church after attending there 29 plus years in August of 08 . We left because the doctrine has been changed to fit what a select group wants . By this I mean Randy Hollis felt that

Deuteronomy 22:5 5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man,

he feels that the word "pertaineth" does not mean what it says but that it means a sword and yet fails to review the rest of this verse "neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. " . Now let's just say Randy Hollis is right and it does mean a sword ok I am fine with this . YET women are not meant to go to war when they are captured they are treated extremely harshly ( I will leave it at that ) Jessica Lynch is a good example of this . So I ask what changes here the way I see it nothing does it still means what it says .

For years we have been taught men should look like men and ladies should look like ladies . Based on this I and my family have always done our best to follow these verses 1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Now I am told this does not mean what it says and it is ok for my son to grow a beard and he and I can grow our hair a little longer than normal men do "it's also ok " that my wife can now cut her hair .

Whenever I wanted to speak with Randy Hollis I was told to make a appointment which I did 5 times and got stood up five times . There is no way for a "regular person " to get in touch with him . You leave a message and they will get back with you on the next business day .

I questioned Randy Hollis in the 10 years he had been here , that he had never preached on Jesus name baptism , and why was this? His statement was he did not feel it was necessary to do so . In this statement with him he did not claim not to believe this way just that it was not needed to be taught . Well my bible tells me how will they hear lest they have a preacher ?

I had many warning signs to leave this church years ago and God knows I wished I had . I had asked one of his Sunday school leaders about what was going on in my son's class and was told I didn't need to know . Also when on our way home on numerous occasions my son was very upset because no word was going forth in his class and all that was talked about was what kind of a coffee pot to get and that he only watched a video and played ping pong the entire night . He knew this was not right and was not happy about it . Stupid me should have taken action way back then .

I also see no reason why a man of God needs armed body guards . I know there has been growing rash of shootings in churches but if you are preaching the truth and living a Godly life ,what do you have to fear? Is it really necessary to have at least two armed men in the congregation at all times ? Some I feared were nothing more than cowboys and I wanted no part of it because I know some didn't have the training and who knows how good the could shoot . Was it not Paul who said to die is gain? While I was on this security team I plainly told Randy Hollis I doubted if I would take a bullet for him and that I am sorry for feeling that way . Now I would step in for some men of God , I really wouldn't want to but would do all I could to stop the aggression if it came to pass . I will close with one last thought from which I will base my stand .

Jeremiah 6:16
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Folks we have a RICH heritage in the Lord why would we want to change it in the last hour ? My bible says that in the last day there will be a great falling away . How will that happen ? It will have to happen in great numbers of mislead people and even within our own ranks .
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  #73  
Old 02-15-2009, 12:37 AM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by electric.S10 View Post
To throw down the gauntlet is to throw down a a challenge , that is the way I see it , now a gauntlet is used for corporal punishment TWO totally different meanings . Which seems to be the way things are done over there any more . I do not hide behind any fancy title . Anyone in the UPCI from within 100 miles in the Louisville area knows who I am . With that said myself and my family left the Hollis lead church after attending there 29 plus years in August of 08 . We left because the doctrine has been changed to fit what a select group wants . By this I mean Randy Hollis felt that

Deuteronomy 22:5 5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man,

he feels that the word "pertaineth" does not mean what it says but that it means a sword and yet fails to review the rest of this verse "neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. " . Now let's just say Randy Hollis is right and it does mean a sword ok I am fine with this . YET women are not meant to go to war when they are captured they are treated extremely harshly ( I will leave it at that ) Jessica Lynch is a good example of this . So I ask what changes here the way I see it nothing does it still means what it says .
I'm not entirely persuaded by the " geber " or "strong man/warrior" approach to Deuteronomy 22:5, either. But the key word here is "pertaineth." From my understanding and review of the record I do find that there are "slacks" and "pants" that "pertaineth" to a woman and not a man. The idea is to keep the differences evident between the boys and the girls. Holy Writ is silent on the exact placement of the inseam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by electric.S10 View Post
For years we have been taught men should look like men and ladies should look like ladies . Based on this I and my family have always done our best to follow these verses 1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Now I am told this does not mean what it says and it is ok for my son to grow a beard and he and I can grow our hair a little longer than normal men do "it's also ok " that my wife can now cut her hair .
Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man should grow a beard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by electric.S10 View Post
Whenever I wanted to speak with Randy Hollis ...
I'm very sorry for the trouble you have experienced. I have family in the Louisville area but they left Apostolic style churches long ago so I don't really know much about the local scene.

On the over all theme of change - I think we do need to change. We should not change our principles; for example distinguishing the difference between the boys and the girls; but we should be willing to allow for certain changes related to technology and even fashions and styles.

During WW2 we had to have women working in our aircraft factories and shipyards. This necessitated that they wear garments cut similar to a man's. Women have been in those jobs ever since. We can't go back to the 1930's, we have to let that period of time go and move on. The clock still hasn't stopped ticking. But, you will notice that even the fashion industry has tried to help us out here by introducing clothing lines that are truly feminine and yet modest when climbing on scaffolds and doing other such work.
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  #74  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:22 PM
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Theophil Theophil is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

Great post pelathais. Quite thought provoking, and well thought out. Keep'em comin'!
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13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. Galatians 5:13-15 (NIV)
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  #75  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:50 AM
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Sandra Sandra is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

Does anyone have randy hollis email or phone number?? I need it : ) THANKS
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  #76  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:24 AM
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electric.S10 electric.S10 is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

His church number is 502.966.LIFE , if that helps you . You will have to get him on Tuesdays though he takes Mondays off
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  #77  
Old 02-16-2009, 12:26 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

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Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
A one stepper believes that you are SAVED at step 1: Repentance.

They believe that Baptism in Jesus' name and the infilling of the
Holy Ghost are essential to SALVATION, but you can be SAVED
without them.
Interesting ... salvation without baptism of water and spirit. Am I reading that quote right?

You can be saved without baptism and the infilling of the HG...

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I'm interested in how a man could be saved without being born of water and spirit. This is in direct conflict with Jesus' words from John 3.

I could be wrong, but the way the quote is worded is incredibly contrary to John 3.
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  #78  
Old 02-16-2009, 12:41 PM
edjen01 edjen01 is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Interesting ... salvation without baptism of water and spirit. Am I reading that quote right?

You can be saved without baptism and the infilling of the HG...

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I'm interested in how a man could be saved without being born of water and spirit. This is in direct conflict with Jesus' words from John 3.

I could be wrong, but the way the quote is worded is incredibly contrary to John 3.
what about mark 16:16....He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

what happend to the "and baptized"? was it just left out? forgotten? erased?
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  #79  
Old 02-16-2009, 05:07 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

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Originally Posted by edjen01 View Post
what about mark 16:16....He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

what happend to the "and baptized"? was it just left out? forgotten? erased?
That's a good point Ed.

John 3:5 has been discussed here before. There are several ways to approach it. What I can't get past is that Jesus is comparing the natural with the physical here. The first birth from one's mother's womb is compared to the birth "from above" or being born again.

Jesus said you need both births. You need the natural birth that comes by water in the womb and if you want to see the Kingdom - you must be born of the Spirit.

There's a problem that you run into when you're always trying to find formulas and stress your own bullet points. The whole time you spend emphasizing how important it is to be so very literal with each passgae and proof text you end up contracting yourself by ignoring your own demjands of exactness.

Surely, n david is not suggesting that Jesus was teaching us that it is possible to see the kingdom and never repent. Yet Jesus never told Nicodemas that you to repent in order to see the Kingdom. And what about holiness? Doesn't John 3:5's promise of seeing the kingdom appear to contradict Hebrews 12:14?

Maybe John 3:5 isn't intended to be any more of a formula that what it appears to be at first glance - you must be born again. Plain and simple.
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  #80  
Old 02-16-2009, 05:08 PM
Jaxon Jaxon is offline
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Re: Did Randy Hollis throw down the gauntlet?

Mark 16:16 doesn't mention repentance. Do you think that negates the need for it.

1 Peter 3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Baptism alone doesn't save us but if you don't put all scriptures together in context I suppose one could use 1 Peter 3:21 out of context to say the only thing neccessary for salvation is repentance.
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