Will I.B. retract if 2 billion don't die soon???

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by TheRationalist

As long as North Americans are not among the two billion does anyone here really care anyway?

Especially if they have dark skin huh?

[TheRationalist]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

Especially if they have dark skin huh?

Not sure that matters as long as they speak English and carry credit cards.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by AmazingGrace

I am right there with ya Bro. All I will say is ... he was the one who prayed my nephew and my best friend thru to the holy ghost. His grandsons are my sons best friends and without them my son wouldnt be here and yep its a long story but... I thank Bro Baxter for being who he is and where he is and he is a man with such a wonderful spirit. I agree totally Jam!

I still would be a non church attending, immoral living, "once saved always saved" baptist if not for Bro. Baxter's emphasis on the need to be truly born again.

Also, I have never heard him claim to be a prophet or make a prophecy, also bro. price said he was wrong on Y2k, but in fact he sid Y2K would be a dud.

Without a doubt, his worst fault is somewhat pinning himself to a certain "close" time period, always saying, I beleive the next 7 years could start this year." I think if he just taught the the prophecies without the predictions he would be much more highly regaurded. However, I do think when he says "i believe...", he is being honest, since there is always a possibility of it actually happening this year or not, even if it is not likely to happen in said year.

I am not "defending" his take on prophecy, but I am defending his character.

Also, about 2 years ago, I was able to go and eat with him and a couple of folks from our church. I was watching (him) and listening (to him) to see if he would seem to act differently now that he was not on the radio, or in church. He was very humble, and very kind. A true christian.

I think everyone is well within their rights to debate his understanding of bible prophecy as accurate or fanciful, but i think we are overstepping our lines to call him a false prophet, for he has never claimed to be a true prophet.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Jason

I still would be a non church attending, immoral living, "once saved always saved" baptist if not for Bro. Baxter's emphasis on the need to be truly born again.

Also, I have never heard him claim to be a prophet or make a prophecy, also bro. price said he was wrong on Y2k, but in fact he sid Y2K would be a dud.

Without a doubt, his worst fault is somewhat pinning himself to a certain "close" time period, always saying, I beleive the next 7 years could start this year." I think if he just taught the the prophecies without the predictions he would be much more highly regaurded. However, I do think when he says "i believe...", he is being honest, since there is always a possibility of it actually happening this year or not, even if it is not likely to happen in said year.

I am not "defending" his take on prophecy, but I am defending his character.

Also, about 2 years ago, I was able to go and eat with him and a couple of folks from our church. I was watching (him) and listening (to him) to see if he would seem to act differently now that he was not on the radio, or in church. He was very humble, and very kind. A true christian.

I think everyone is well within their rights to debate his understanding of bible prophecy as accurate or fanciful, but i think we are overstepping our lines to call him a false prophet, for he has never claimed to be a true prophet.

I agree. I wish he would abandon the predictions etc.. But in no way do I question his faith of Christianity.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

He may very well believe Acts 2:38 like most of the Christian world does ... as much as PCIers did ... and do ....

It seems to me that there is mounting evidence that he does not see it as essential as many of his ministerial peers in the UPCI .... The video and the website statement of beliefs are offered as possible evidence of this ...

Perhaps he's light doctrine like AD URSHAN or GT HAYWOOD?

If he's strict 3 stepper it seems inconsistent that he focuses on end time prophecy and not see the urgency to be more vocal about 3 step salvation.

Doom and gloom and yet not offer the escape???

When Bro. Baxter was still in Richmond, Indiana, my wife was his personal secretary and music director for many years. She was also his first Endtime employee, and I was his second. While working at Endtime, I was the assistant editor and wrote many of the articles found in the early editions. In all the years I attended his church, I can tell you without reservation that Bro. Irvin Baxter, Jr., believed a person MUST repent, be baptized in Jesus' name, and be filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues to be saved.

Bro. Baxter was very staunch about Acts 2:38 salvation. He also wrote tracts saying as much. These include:What Do You Mean 'Born Again'?; Why so many Churches?; Tongues--Devilish or Divine? It looks like he offers each of these free at the links I included.

I agree that he does present what he believes pretty vanilla on his Endtime website. That was one of the conversations he and I had when I was still there. I felt the magazine should be more forward about the apostolic doctrines we held. He disagreed. His belief was the magazine should be more centered on prophecy. The problem was this left many key doctrines opened to all kinds of interpretation. Before I left we had Baptist ministers using Endtime magazine to start new churches. They could do this because the magazine contained no clear statement about the Acts 2:38 plan of salvation.

Though Bro. Baxter and I do not agree on prophecy, I have always respected him for his stance on biblical salvation. We know folks that are still connected to him though he has moved to Texas. To my knowledge, he has not changed his belief in the necessity of Acts 2:38. I can tell you this, if you'll email him at Endtime, he will tell you what he does believe.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Of course this will be his out ... Mark ...

but anyone who reads that article ... sees how he cleverly weaves how today's headlines all seem to line up with a timeline he suggests to his readers .... with photos of our military, Real national IDs, and ties to the Bush White House

It's like reading the Enquirer, IMO.

He's had people on the edge of hysterics for years.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

When Bro. Baxter was still in Richmond, Indiana, my wife was his personal secretary and music director for many years. She was also his first Endtime employee, and I was his second. While working at Endtime, I was the assistant editor and wrote many of the articles found in the early editions. In all the years I attended his church, I can tell you without reservation that Bro. Irvin Baxter, Jr., believed a person MUST repent, be baptized in Jesus' name, and be filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues to be saved.

Bro. Baxter was very staunch about Acts 2:38 salvation. He also wrote tracts saying as much. These include:What Do You Mean 'Born Again'?; Why so many Churches?; Tongues--Devilish or Divine? It looks like he offers each of these free at the links I included.

I agree that he does present what he believes pretty vanilla on his Endtime website. That was one of the conversations he and I had when I was still there. I felt the magazine should be more forward about the apostolic doctrines we held. He disagreed. His belief was the magazine should be more centered on prophecy. The problem was this left many key doctrines opened to all kinds of interpretation. Before I left we had Baptist ministers using Endtime magazine to start new churches. They could do this because the magazine contained no clear statement about the Acts 2:38 plan of salvation.

Though Bro. Baxter and I do not agree on prophecy, I have always respected him for his stance on biblical salvation. We know folks that are still connected to him though he has moved to Texas. To my knowledge, he has not changed his belief in the necessity of Acts 2:38. I can tell you this, if you'll email him at Endtime, he will tell you what he does believe.

TK, thank you for this post. It's always good to hear the real story from someone who truly knows it.

Too much supposition and innuendo floating around these days about what this preacher, or that preacher believes, and it's nice when someone with first hand experience can set the record straight.

Now, if we just had someone who could attest to what NW believes about the giants on the earth, lol!

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Jason

I still would be a non church attending, immoral living, "once saved always saved" baptist if not for Bro. Baxter's emphasis on the need to be truly born again.

Also, I have never heard him claim to be a prophet or make a prophecy, also bro. price said he was wrong on Y2k, but in fact he sid Y2K would be a dud.

Without a doubt, his worst fault is somewhat pinning himself to a certain "close" time period, always saying, I beleive the next 7 years could start this year." I think if he just taught the the prophecies without the predictions he would be much more highly regaurded. However, I do think when he says "i believe...", he is being honest, since there is always a possibility of it actually happening this year or not, even if it is not likely to happen in said year.

I am not "defending" his take on prophecy, but I am defending his character.

Also, about 2 years ago, I was able to go and eat with him and a couple of folks from our church. I was watching (him) and listening (to him) to see if he would seem to act differently now that he was not on the radio, or in church. He was very humble, and very kind. A true christian.

I think everyone is well within their rights to debate his understanding of bible prophecy as accurate or fanciful, but i think we are overstepping our lines to call him a false prophet, for he has never claimed to be a true prophet.

You are exactly right.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by ILG

He's had people on the edge of hysterics for years.

Never met anyone on the edge of hysterics because of Bro. Baxter's ministry???

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Kutless

can anybody point to anything specific that he has got wrong?

While I was Assistant Editor at Endtime Ministries of Richmond, Indiana, I taught Bro. Baxter's view of prophecy including those about the beasts found in Daniel 7. As I began to study his teachings further, I found several glaring errors. Some of these are as follows:

The basis for the foundation upon which Endtime ministries is established is his teaching that each of the “beasts/animals” of Daniel 7 are easily recognized symbols of countries today. The Bear is Russia, the Eagle is the United States, the 10 horn kingdom is the European common market, and the Leopard is Germany.
Bro. Baxter used to think that the Nazi “Panzer” units were referring to “Panther” (Leopard) units of German. This, of course is not true. Many years ago a relative of Bro. Baxter’s asked a college professor about this. This man was consulted because he was considered an expert in symbolism. This professor stated to him that in the history of Germany there has never been a time when they used a leopard for their symbol. Never! As a matter of fact, on page 9 of Bro. Baxter’s book A Message for the President (AMFTP) he uses an article about the German Fourth Reich, and in it is found the symbol that Germany is known for—a two-headed eagle. In WW1 there was a poster showing German and US aircraft dog-fighting. Superimposed over these planes was a US Bald Eagle sinking its talons into a black two-headed eagle. This two headed eagle was then—and still is today – the known recognized symbol for Germany!

Bro. Baxter depends much on the Leopard for his teachings. He talks about the four heads of the leopard, and how Germany is now in their “Forth Reich.” The wound that would not heal (See Rev 13:3), he says refers to the leopard's (Germany’s) Berlin Wall. When this fell, he predicted that the world would enter into a New World Order. We all know that it did fall. Of course, everyone from President J.F. Kennedy to President Ronald Regan called for its demise. Endtime began at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall. In fact, that occurrence was largely the catalyst for him launching his magazine. So you can see why having Germany as the leopard is so important to everything else he teaches. However, what must be kept in mind is that Bro. Baxter said these beasts are KNOWN SYMBOLS of nations today, and that NEVER in the history of Germany did they ever use a leopard for their national symbol. So in the end, Bro. Baxter’s own hermeneutic denies his own conclusion.

If you will notice, Bro. Baxter does not dwell very long on his leopard theory and goes through that area of his teaching rather quickly. He does this because he only has one newspaper article from February 20, 1975 (See page 11 of AMFTP). This article states that the chief battle tank for Germany is called a “Leopard Tank.” This sole article is all he offers to show where Germany is referred to as a Leopard—no other history, pictures, or anything. Of course if Endtime loses their “Leopard-Germany,” they also lose their teaching on the Berlin Wall and thereby a major reason why this ministry began.

Also, the Eagle and Uncle Sam cannot be correct as Endtime teaches either. Notice again the God-inspired wording for this: “The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it” (Daniel 7:4). For years Apostolics have hammered the fact that Matthew 28:19 says, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” They have always made a point that every major translation of the Bible all agrees that it says the singular NAME and not the plural NAMES. Let’s stay consistent here with Daniel 7:4 as well.

This scripture says “lion” (singular) and “wings” (plural). Notice it says, “IT was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to IT.” IT is a singular pronoun, not a plural. This shows that this referred not to the plural wings but to the singular lion. Well the US and Uncle Sam just flew away with one reading of the scripture for what it literally says. If a person wants to change this, that is their prerogative, but as me and my house, we will leave IT as it is written.

Bro. Baxter also claims that the “Eagle Wings” in Revelation 12:14 refer to a US air-lift. Moses wrote, “Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself” (Exodus 19:4). Does this also mean that the US air-lifted the children of Israel out of Egypt long ago? If so, how was this possible? All kidding aside, Exodus 19:4 actually is the first mention of God using “eagle wings” in the Bible. According to the interpretative law of first mention, we should go to this occurrence first to see the context in which God used “eagle wings” then to better understand how He used them later. When we do this we see that Revelation 12:14 could not be referring to a US air-lift.

Now let’s look at the 10 Horn Kingdom: Bro. Baxter wrote that this would be the European Common Market (See AMFTP pages 10-21). The problem is this union has far surpassed the original 12 members he said it would have, and is now scheduled to be around 20 plus members in the near future. If his teachings were divinely inspired then, why is there such a blaring error now? What will this beast become now that this is no longer an acceptable explanation? Has God changed His mind? I think not.

If the line of Endtime interpretation that says we are to interpret beasts found within biblical prophecy by scanning newspapers for modern day equivalents is carried to its fullness, would we be correct to assume that the Ram mentioned in Daniel 8 is also referring to the USA? Why would I ask this? Well, the Dodge Motor Company produces the Dodge Ram Truck, and since this company is from the USA, then this ram in Daniel must be referring to the USA. This may be right?! After all, if Endtime can use tanks for Germany, why can’t trucks be used for the USA? I am of course jesting. However, with the type of interpretation Endtime supports one can only wonder where such guesswork could ultimately lead.

In conclusion I would like to quote Bro. Baxter as found on page 2 of his book AMFTP: “When God picked symbols to represent nations, he did not pick them arbitrarily nor did he choose symbols which had no significance. Rather he chose symbols that would be meaningful to the people who lived at the time of the prophecy’s fulfillment.” He is right in this! History records how the understandings of these various beasts played out through biblical times up until the times of Jesus. Bro. Baxter is a good man, but his prophecy teachings are based on a faulty hermeneutic. His prophetic conclusions would not – could not – be found without the help of newspaper and magazine articles. Such sources are always found as the center of all of his predictions. Since when are we supposed to “rightly divide the word of tabloids?” My Bible says it is to be “the Word of God!” The Bible already gives clear indicators within itself who these beasts were. When these are read within their context it is incredible how easy it is to properly interpret Daniel’s vision and the remainder his related prophecies.

I have nothing personal against Bro. Baxter. I deeply respect him. What I have written above is only about what he teaches.