Phariseeism

theoldpaths · #1 08-15-2008, 08:27 PM

The following is taken from Raymond Woodward's "Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness". Same author upon which the following link is based upon about Holiness and Nicolaitanes - http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=17658

"Jesus used the word "hypocrite" ("godless actor") to describe the Pharisees seven times in Matthew 23. And yet, He made a distinction between the righteous principles they taught and the unrighteous actions they committed.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

pelathais · #2 08-15-2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

The following is taken from Raymond Woodward's "Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness". Same author upon which the following link is based upon about Holiness and Nicolaitanes - http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=17658

"Jesus used the word "hypocrite" ("godless actor") to describe the Pharisees seven times in Matthew 23. And yet, He made a distinction between the righteous principles they taught and the unrighteous actions they committed.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

Didn't Jesus have a rebellious tone though when He said, "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not"? Do you think He was really being supportive of the "authority" of the Pharisees when he called them "vipers?" (Matthew 23:33).

Tim Rutledge · #3 08-15-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

The following is taken from Raymond Woodward's "Because We Are His - Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness". Same author upon which the following link is based upon about Holiness and Nicolaitanes - http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=17658

"Jesus used the word "hypocrite" ("godless actor") to describe the Pharisees seven times in Matthew 23. And yet, He made a distinction between the righteous principles they taught and the unrighteous actions they committed.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

I find it interesting that because the Pharisees were sitting in a place of authority - Moses' seat -, Jesus told the multitudes and his disciples that whatsoever they bid them to observe, they were to observe and do.

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

Either you percieve your Pastor as a Man of God, or you consider him just a guy, who'll maybe kind of help you spirtually. If I did not believe my Pastor was a true Man of God. I'd leave. People have different ideas about the word submission. And we all have different levels of tolerance towards what the definition of, or what the role of, culture plays into what and how we go about naming sin. If someone draws the line tighter them me.. God bless them, hopefully they will pray for me. If I draw the line tighter on some issues.. and I see it as salvational.. I need to pray for you. I'm not your Pastor and am not responsible for your soul. Every idle word, even if it is typed.. I'll stand in judgement for.

God Bless.

TalkLady · #4 08-15-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Either you percieve your Pastor as a Man of God, or you consider him just a guy, who'll maybe kind of help you spirtually. If I did not believe my Pastor was a true Man of God. I'd leave. People have different ideas about the word submission. And we all have different levels of tolerance towards what the definition of, or what the role of, culture plays into what and how we go about naming sin. If someone draws the line tighter them me.. God bless them, hopefully they will pray for me. If I draw the line tighter on some issues.. and I see it as salvational.. I need to pray for you. I'm not your Pastor and am not responsible for your soul. Every idle word, even if it is typed.. I'll stand in judgment for.

God Bless.

Think about it, EVERYONE (including TalkLady).

HappyTown · #5 08-15-2008, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

Didn't Jesus have a rebellious tone though when He said, "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not"? Do you think He was really being supportive of the "authority" of the Pharisees when he called them "vipers?" (Matthew 23:33).

That's how I take it!

pelathais · #6 08-15-2008, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Either you percieve your Pastor as a Man of God, or you consider him just a guy, who'll maybe kind of help you spirtually. If I did not believe my Pastor was a true Man of God. I'd leave. People have different ideas about the word submission. And we all have different levels of tolerance towards what the definition of, or what the role of, culture plays into what and how we go about naming sin.

Good thoughts, or at least I agree with your sentiments here... so I choose to think that what you've said is "good."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

If someone draws the line tighter them me.. God bless them, hopefully they will pray for me. If I draw the line tighter on some issues.. and I see it as salvational.. I need to pray for you.

At this point we seem to sadly part, at least in our opinions. I place the Bible itself upon a pretty high pedestal and I fear for those who try to corrupt its message and meaning. Sometimes I am angry with them. Adding to the Word is just as wrong as taking away from it. To put the whims of worldly fashion into the same context as the Gospel of salvation troubles me greatly. There are things that are eternal, and then there are things that are just plain silly. Holiness demands that we keep these things seperate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

I'm not your Pastor and am not responsible for your soul. Every idle word, even if it is typed.. I'll stand in judgement for.

God Bless.

But don't forget the blessings for your good words as well! (1 Timothy 4:6).

Carpenter · #7 08-15-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Either you percieve your Pastor as a Man of God, or you consider him just a guy, who'll maybe kind of help you spirtually. If I did not believe my Pastor was a true Man of God. I'd leave. People have different ideas about the word submission. And we all have different levels of tolerance towards what the definition of, or what the role of, culture plays into what and how we go about naming sin. If someone draws the line tighter them me.. God bless them, hopefully they will pray for me. If I draw the line tighter on some issues.. and I see it as salvational.. I need to pray for you. I'm not your Pastor and am not responsible for your soul. Every idle word, even if it is typed.. I'll stand in judgement for.

God Bless.

No. I absolutely refuse to accept your premise that there are only two categories where a pastor fits, either a Man of God or just a guy that might help you spiritually. If these are the only choices, then no wonder folks are struggling, and no wonder folks get their underwear in a bunch when they evaluate what the pastor says or does is applicable to their spiritual state.

A pastor should be a mentor. I am not sure I really care if he loves me personally or individually because, to be honest, I am not sure what that should look like. At a minimum there should be reciprocal trust.

theoldpaths · #8 08-15-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

Didn't Jesus have a rebellious tone though when He said, "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not"? Do you think He was really being supportive of the "authority" of the Pharisees when he called them "vipers?" (Matthew 23:33).

They were in a position of spiritual authority in the OT still. They were hypocrits because they said and did not. Our righteousness is to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees - they said and did not, but Jesus said to observe and do what they bid you. Those who have a right relationship with God on the inside can submit to God-given authority and obey. Those who do not have a right relationship with God seem to have a problem with submitting and/or doing.

In the NT, the Pastor is in a place of spiritual authority and as Hebrews 13 says 3 times in the same chapter, we are to obey those who have the rule over us.

While they were still in the OT, Jesus told them because they sit in Moses' seat, they were to observe and do what they bid them.

Sister Alvear · #9 08-15-2008, 09:34 PM

I am glad for my pastor...wish everyone had a pastor like I do....

Rhoni · #10 08-15-2008, 09:37 PM

Pelathais,

Thank you for what you have posted. Staying with an old path, just because it is old, and the way it has always been done is in itself hypocrisy.

The Roman Catholic church could not accept the simplicity fo the gospel message that is why in 325 A.D. they adopted Catholicism as the governmental religion, and the mode of baptism as sprinkling in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then came all the rules, regulations, and 'works' based legalism to make men feel that they could earn salvation. It didn't work for the Jews under the Mosaic Law, didn't work for the Roman Catholic Church, and has not bode well for many Apostolic organizations, such as, The UPCI.

The thread locked on my wanting to be a missionary is an example of legalism gone wrong. Those posing to be so spiritual and holy are expecting others to measure up to their standard of 'holiness', and outward show of what a "burden for souls" looks like. God is God and can use whomever, and whatever He will - despite some of you folks.

While many old-timers, or Conservatives want accolades for their righteous, or self-righteous words, their standard of dress, and their sticking to the "old landmarks", they are like the Pharisees whited sepulchres full of dead men's bones.

Take this thread...of how many posts now against a young man struggling to find himself who hasn't even posted since 7/31/2008. Let's cripple him, chastize him, and lay him face down in the mud and walk on him for having questions that many of us have had through the years.

The thing is...God didn't need your help in speaking the worlds into existence; you weren't there when he made everything that is made from darkness, and void, so what makes you think He needs you to correct, reprove, condemn, and crucify others on this forum. I am sure you feel "Holy Indignation", and justified in slaughtering reputations of people God has greatly used through the years because they stopped being like you are.

The message of God is simple: repent, be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and be filled with his spirit...being conformed to HIS likeness, not each other's likeness.

Preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified and stop preaching condemnation, and judgement. That was never the message of Christ. From Genesis to Revelation it has always been about forgiveness, restoration, and reconcilliation. If Jesus didn't condemn the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, the tax collectors, and even Saul of Tarsus, but forgave, gave them a new name, and a new destiny...then how do you come off judging others and condemning them?

Those of you who have condemned Thad for all the gossip are so guilty of it yourself. At least he owns up to his interest in all these things while you deny that you are what you condemn him to be.

I think I've said enough tonight.

__________________
Quote:
Surely for a Christian, stooping to someone else's level should only be done to give them a hand up and not to push their head down in the mud! Rev DWW