Question

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

If He knows our choices can we make another choice?

God knowing our choices doesn't mean we don't have a choice.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Did Hitler have a choice? Or was he predestined to be the HUNTER that God said would rise up and ultimatly drive Israel back to the Promised Lan

God predestines according to His foreknowledge of the choices we make.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

God predestines according to His foreknowledge of the choices we make.

Here is what I ask a plain answer for....

COULD the Roman Soldier,, used his Free Will and forbid to fulfill the scriptures by giving him Vinegar to drink?

Is your answer yes? or "he would have used the next soldier" ook

Well, the next 10 soldiers all using their FREE WILL refuse to kill Jesus... there are no more soldiers left...... did that solider really have a free will?

Jesus seems to indicate that he did NOT when he said "they know not what they do" in other words.. these guys are clueless,,they have no idea that they are being used in the plan of God...

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” (Romans 9:19)

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (Romans 9:20-21).

He takes a portion of clay from his pile and he fashions a beautiful vase to be sold at the market for a vast sum. Then from that same lump of clay, he might take another portion of clay and mold a basin to be used by a farmer for feeding his pigs.



No one would ever think of charging the potter with injustice because he had not given equal treatment to both lumps of clay. No one can question the potter’s right to do with the lump of clay as he will. He is the owner of the clay. He is the molder of the pot. He is free to do with it according to his wishes.



The principle is the same here. As the sovereign Creator, God can do anything with His creation that He desires. He is free to act as He chooses

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Here is what I ask a plain answer for....

COULD the Roman Soldier,, used his Free Will and forbid to fulfill the scriptures by giving him Vinegar to drink?

Is your answer yes? or "he would have used the next soldier" ook

Well, the next 10 soldiers all using their FREE WILL refuse to kill Jesus... there are no more soldiers left...... did that solider really have a free will?

Jesus seems to indicate that he did NOT when he said "they know not what they do" in other words.. these guys are clueless,,they have no idea that they are being used in the plan of God...

Let me put it this way: Before creation God saw the end from the beginning. God knew that the soldier would by his own free will give Jesus vinegar to drink. And knowing this beforehand, God caused the scripture to be written prophetically.

His foreknowledge doesn't change future events UNLESS He decided before creation to influence events to happen a certain way. Acts 15:8 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world

Even before God uttered, "Let there be light..", God knew how the future would unfold. His foreknowledge doesn't change a thing BUT He is able to predestine accordingly and He is able to cause events to happen (He can direct our paths with various means) to lead us one way or another depending upon our choices.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (Romans 9:20-21).

He takes a portion of clay from his pile and he fashions a beautiful vase to be sold at the market for a vast sum. Then from that same lump of clay, he might take another portion of clay and mold a basin to be used by a farmer for feeding his pigs.



No one would ever think of charging the potter with injustice because he had not given equal treatment to both lumps of clay. No one can question the potter’s right to do with the lump of clay as he will. He is the owner of the clay. He is the molder of the pot. He is free to do with it according to his wishes.



The principle is the same here. As the sovereign Creator, God can do anything with His creation that He desires. He is free to act as He chooses

But in acting as He chooses, God will not go against His character. He cannot be other than who He is. And He is impartial and just.

Romans 9 follows Romans 8 and Romans 8 lays the groundwork for Romans 9 with these verses:


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

There is clearly an order to God's planning. Foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification. As you can see, the called have been glorified already!!!!! to God it is a reality but since we are living in eternity but in a temporal existence, we will not be glorified until the resurrection. God calls those things which be not as though they were.


And Peter agrees with Paul. We are called according to the foreknowledge of God:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Originally Posted by mizpeh

But in acting as He chooses, God will not go against His character. He cannot be other than who He is. And He is impartial and just.

Romans 9 follows Romans 8 and Romans 8 lays the groundwork for Romans 9 with these verses:


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

There is clearly an order to God's planning. Foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification. As you can see, the called have been glorified already!!!!! to God it is a reality but since we are living in eternity but in a temporal existence, we will not be glorified until the resurrection. God calls those things which be not as though they were.


And Peter agrees with Paul. We are called according to the foreknowledge of God:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

So, where are we disagreeing?

Was God being true to his impartial nature when he ordered the killing of Amaleks babies?

[Pro31:28]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

There is so much to be said on this issue!

As Doc Brown once shouted out, "Marty! The future isn't set. It is whatever you make it out to be!", so goes our free will.
Of course, in another manner of speaking, the future IS set because God knows what we will be doing tomorrow and the next day, and the moment we die and of what cause.
In our fixed spot in our space-time continuum, I believe we can have both: Total free will and yet still be predestined to make certain choices and have certain things happen to us, which can only be known by someone looking from far FAR above our dimension.

There is so much more to be said on this. For instance in our own universe, when looking at matter at the quantum level we see particles that behave in a certain way based on our mere observation of them. Some see this as evidence of the existence of a multiverse where every possible outcome has already been calculated and happened.

The Gospel according to Back To The Future! LOVE IT!

[stasis]

The answer is very simple. It's all in the plain words of scripture. People generally try to avoid these scriptures, or they frowardly twist them to be more 'platable', as the blunt truth they present is quite frightening. But... the fear of God (the frightening realization of the power of his sovereignty) is the beginning of Wisdom, and we can learn to take comfort in this (if we are his sheep), such resting (Sabbath) being the very essence of faith ("Trust and obey. God is in control.")


Isaiah 56:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"


We are God's robots. Free-will is the lying doctrine of Babylon, by which man blasphemes the sovereignty of God, and declares himself to be his own god, the dictator of his own destiny. However, the catch is that God even destines men to blaspheme his authority, so he can destroy them.

John 12:40
"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Romans 9:22
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

So, the God who declares all things from beginning to end has also declared, from the beginning, those who would go to hell, as well as the 'decisions' they would make which would result in this.

God controls everything, including the acts of the Babylonian soldiers who bashed the brains out of the children of Jerusalem, raped the women and pulled the remaining population into captivity. Does God sin in this? No. He is not subject to the laws of good and evil; that law was created by him, FOR US.

He can do what he wants. After all, he's God.

Our acts do not direct or change the future. Rather they are simply the plan of God which has already been set.