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  #11  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:32 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

Was it the Apostolic Assembly Of The Faith In Christ? Or was it an independent group? There are not many (hate to put it this way) "White" Churches that practice this.

I personally believe Paul taught that when Women PRAY OR PROPHESY in public they are to cover with a veil or scarf of some kind. I wish an Apostolic group around here taught this truth.
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  #12  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:39 PM
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

I believe the language is rather clear. In addition early Christian writings on this subject also express an understanding closer to the literal meaning of the text's language. Let's look at I Corinthians 11:2-16 in the ESV for a little clarity,

Paul commends the Corinthian church for maintaining Apostolic "traditions",

2Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

Paul explains the rule of headship,

3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Paul addresses males wearing head coverings in prayer,

4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head,

Paul addresses women and head coverings in prayer. Notice that if she prays without her head covered it is "as if she were shaven." This simple statement clearly distinguishes being uncovered from a woman having her head shaven. Both are apparently a shame...

5but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

In the following verses Paul states that if a woman will not cover her head in prayer she should cut her hair short. Again the covering and hair length is compared and distinguished from one another. (Two subjects being compared.) Since it is a shame to cut off her hair, it serves as a proper example that she should be covered.

6For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

Paul explains that a man should not cover his head seeing that he is in the image of Christ. For a man to be covered, it would indicate that he is under an authority other than Christ...but a woman is under her husband's authority...

7For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Paul illustrates that a head covering serves as a symbol of a woman's submission to her husband. However she is to be honored for each gender is in need of the other.

10That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.

Now to underscore Paul's initial point (verses 5 and 6) he draws an illustration from nature and presents it to the Corinthians. A woman should be covered, even nature teaches us this for it has given a woman her hair as a natural covering (Hair is not a symbol of authority as is the actual head covering referenced in verses 5,6, and 10). Paul indicates that practice and nature both agree....

13Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

Here Paul states that this practice is a universal practice throughout the churches of God...

16If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

Early Christian writings indicate that Christian practice asked that a woman wear a head covering while in worship and prayer. Conservative Christian practice (both Modalist and Trinitarian) throughout the centuries indicates that this was the norm until the mid to late 1800's.

The question isn't so much as to what Paul was talking about, for the text appears to be plainly comparing two subjects head covering and hair. The question is has culture changed so drastically that this custom is no longer applicable or should this be a permanent part of Christian practice?

It should also be noted the issue is public disgrace or shame, not so much "sin". The reason that this was considered "shameful" was because in Corinth and throughout Asia Minor the cult of Isis was relatively common. In this cult the women worshiped the pagan goddess by letting down their hair and ecstatically calling upon the goddess. During many of these pagan rituals gross sexual perversions also took place. Any resemblance to this practice was indeed a shame. Not to mention a man covered as was customary for women was wearing that which pertained to a woman. A woman uncovered was considered immodest and/or in rebellion from male authority.

Such was never considered a damnable sin but rather an issue of Christian practice and decency.

Many women have found deep spiritual blessings in accepting this practice. I've discovered their meek and humble spirits speak volumes as they seek true Biblical womanhood.

The real question is...does it apply today?
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  #13  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:44 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
I believe the language is rather clear. In addition early Christian writings on this subject also express an understanding closer to the literal meaning of the text's language. Let's look at I Corinthians 11:2-16 in the ESV for a little clarity,

Paul commends the Corinthian church for maintaining Apostolic "traditions",

2Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

Paul explains the rule of headship,

3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Paul addresses males wearing head coverings in prayer,

4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head,

Paul addresses women and head coverings in prayer. Notice that if she prays without her head covered it is "as if she were shaven." This simple statement clearly distinguishes being uncovered from a woman having her head shaven. Both are apparently a shame...

5but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

In the following verses Paul states that if a woman will not cover her head in prayer she should cut her hair short. Again the covering and hair length is compared and distinguished from one another. (Two subjects being compared.) Since it is a shame to cut off her hair, it serves as a proper example that she should be covered.

6For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

Paul explains that a man should not cover his head seeing that he is in the image of Christ. For a man to be covered, it would indicate that he is under an authority other than Christ...but a woman is under her husband's authority...

7For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Paul illustrates that a head covering serves as a symbol of a woman's submission to her husband. However she is to be honored for each gender is in need of the other.

10That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.

Now to underscore Paul's initial point (verses 5 and 6) he draws an illustration from nature and presents it to the Corinthians. A woman should be covered, even nature teaches us this for it has given a woman her hair as a natural covering (Hair is not a symbol of authority as is the actual head covering referenced in verses 5,6, and 10). Paul indicates that practice and nature both agree....

13Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

Here Paul states that this practice is a universal practice throughout the churches of God...

16If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

Early Christian writings indicate that Christian practice asked that a woman wear a head covering while in worship and prayer. Conservative Christian practice (both Modalist and Trinitarian) throughout the centuries indicates that this was the norm until the mid to late 1800's.

The question isn't so much as to what Paul was talking about, for the text appears to be plainly comparing two subjects head covering and hair. The question is has culture changed so drastically that this custom is no longer applicable or should this be a permanent part of Christian practice?

It should also be noted the issue is public disgrace or shame, not so much "sin". The reason that this was considered "shameful" was because in Corinth and throughout Asia Minor the cult of Isis was relatively common. In this cult the women worshiped the pagan goddess by letting down their hair and ecstatically calling upon the goddess. During many of these pagan rituals gross sexual perversions also took place. Any resemblance to this practice was indeed a shame. Not to mention a man covered as was customary for women was wearing that which pertained to a woman. A woman uncovered was considered immodest and/or in rebellion from male authority.

Such was never considered a damnable sin but rather an issue of Christian practice and decency.

Many women have found deep spiritual blessings in accepting this practice. I've discovered their meek and humble spirits speak volumes as they seek true Biblical womanhood.

The real question is...does it apply today?
A good expanation of Pauls teaching. And yes its for today. Communion is in the same chapter and most believe it is still valid.
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  #14  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:52 PM
jdm05 jdm05 is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Was it the Apostolic Assembly Of The Faith In Christ? Or was it an independent group? There are not many (hate to put it this way) "White" Churches that practice this.

I personally believe Paul taught that when Women PRAY OR PROPHESY in public they are to cover with a veil or scarf of some kind. I wish an Apostolic group around here taught this truth.
It was the Apostolic Assembly of The Faith In Christ or Assemblia Apostolica de La Fe en Cristo Jesus.
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  #15  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:54 PM
jaxfam6 jaxfam6 is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

Veils are a tradition not a biblical teaching. The words used in the scripture is a generic word for covering up until he tells them that a woman's hair is given to her in place of a covering. Then he actually uses the word for a cloth not a generic word. Not that I feel a woman is wrong is she veils herself but I feel that her hair was given to her for that purpose. So as long as her hair will cover her head and wrap around she is fine. Guess you could say I have my opinion that if her hair is shorter than her shoulders than maybe she should veil. If longer than her shoulders than it is up to her but she doesn't have to. But then again just my opinions and thoughts upon studying the words
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  #16  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:55 PM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

I've heard of an interpretation that makes sense that I'll share here.

The key is verse 5....

I Corinthians 11:5 (ESV)
5but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Let's define, "her head".

1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV)
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

In Paul's day the cultural mores were such that if a woman were to attend public gatherings without a veil of sorts she would be regarded as an immodest woman. This would clearly dishonor her "head" or husband. So Paul admonished these women to wear their veils in addition to their long hair so that their husbands not be dishonored by them appearing immodest in public.

It could be argued that the "head covering" isn't required in our society but the principle of a woman being modest so as to not dishonor her husband publically is. The issue that comes into question is...how is modesty defined in one's cultural context? If living in an Eastern country where head coverings still apply, the principle would back up head coverings. If in a culture where head coverings do not apply, but perhaps a wedding band would, the principle would back up wearing a wedding band so as not to appear to be a loose woman and thereby dishonoring a woman's head or husband.

Just something I thought I'd include here.

For a while my wife wore something in her hair every time she was on the platform. It was something that we led our family into doing voluntarily. But as time passed I realized that the head covering wasn't so much the issue...the issue was deeper. Paul was calling women to honor their husbands through modest appearance in public.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
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  #17  
Old 06-23-2008, 11:00 PM
jaxfam6 jaxfam6 is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
I've heard of an interpretation that makes sense that I'll share here.

The key is verse 5....

I Corinthians 11:5 (ESV)
5but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Let's define, "her head".

1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV)
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

In Paul's day the cultural mores were such that if a woman were to attend public gatherings without a veil of sorts she would be regarded as an immodest woman. This would clearly dishonor her "head" or husband. So Paul admonished these women to wear their veils in addition to their long hair so that their husbands not be dishonored by them appearing immodest in public.

It could be argued that the "head covering" isn't required in our society but the principle of a woman being modest so as to not dishonor her husband publically is. The issue that comes into question is...how is modesty defined in one's cultural context? If living in an Eastern country where head coverings still apply, the principle would back up head coverings. If in a culture where head coverings do not apply, but perhaps a wedding band would, the principle would back up wearing a wedding band so as not to appear to be a loose woman and thereby dishonoring a woman's head or husband.

Just something I thought I'd include here.

For a while my wife wore something in her hair every time she was on the platform. It was something that we led our family into doing voluntarily. But as time passed I realized that the head covering wasn't so much the issue...the issue was deeper. Paul was calling women to honor their husbands through modest appearance in public.

I think you finally got it. =)

modest appearance as well as modest in actions and attitude. That goes for men as well also.
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  #18  
Old 06-23-2008, 11:43 PM
StMark StMark is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
But did you believe that Jesus wanted you to wear it? Thats whats important. The Bible says nothing about the color of the veil.

My Grandmother immigrated to America. She was old school
Catholic to the Max and wore a long lace veil

The Veils that the Apostolic Assembly wear comes from
catholicism
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  #19  
Old 06-23-2008, 11:44 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
I've heard of an interpretation that makes sense that I'll share here.

The key is verse 5....

I Corinthians 11:5 (ESV)
5but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Let's define, "her head".

1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV)
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

In Paul's day the cultural mores were such that if a woman were to attend public gatherings without a veil of sorts she would be regarded as an immodest woman. This would clearly dishonor her "head" or husband. So Paul admonished these women to wear their veils in addition to their long hair so that their husbands not be dishonored by them appearing immodest in public.

It could be argued that the "head covering" isn't required in our society but the principle of a woman being modest so as to not dishonor her husband publically is. The issue that comes into question is...how is modesty defined in one's cultural context? If living in an Eastern country where head coverings still apply, the principle would back up head coverings. If in a culture where head coverings do not apply, but perhaps a wedding band would, the principle would back up wearing a wedding band so as not to appear to be a loose woman and thereby dishonoring a woman's head or husband.

Just something I thought I'd include here.

For a while my wife wore something in her hair every time she was on the platform. It was something that we led our family into doing voluntarily. But as time passed I realized that the head covering wasn't so much the issue...the issue was deeper. Paul was calling women to honor their husbands through modest appearance in public.
Sorry you gave up the truth.
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  #20  
Old 06-24-2008, 05:28 PM
jaxfam6 jaxfam6 is offline
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Re: Christian Headcovering Or Veil ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StMark View Post
My Grandmother immigrated to America. She was old school
Catholic to the Max and wore a long lace veil

The Veils that the Apostolic Assembly wear comes from
catholicism
And your grandmothers did't?

The AAFCJ is almost all Latino, of course the veil is a carry over from Catholicism.

The veil worn by any 'Christian' group is a carry over from them.
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