Revisiting the "PANTS" Issue

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by StMark

Everyone one of you that would allow your daughter to wear Pants but would freak out if your son wore a dress and high heels is a hyprocirte!!!!

There is a difference between a man wearing men's skirts and cross dressing.
just like the difference between women wearing pants and women trying to dress like a man. We have a woman in our neighborhood that I had to look at twice to decide if it was a man or a woman. The first time i decided it was a man and then next time I realized I was wrong. This lady is very much trying to look like a man. She dresses like it, cuts her hair like it, walks like it. so on and so on.
I know many women who wear pants and are not trying to look like a man.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Mark said "It doesn't stop me from being friends or posting, but AFF is an ultra liberal Xpenny forum for the most part."

S H says, "Udder foolishness!"

Now you know why I started my poll!

BTW, you could use that picture and create the "Udder Foolishness" award.

[bkstokes]

Mark

Another reason why I think a change is coming is because I see people living 2 different ways. I still have contact with many people in the UPC church where I received the HG. I look at their Facebook pictures and I see them dressing totally different outside of church. I think sooner or later they will not want to keep this up.

Originally Posted by Rico

I have not read very many posts on this thread, mainly because clothing issues have been debated to death!. I did, however decide to drop in and at least check out a few posts. It took about 30 seconds of skimming to find this one and all I have to say is HOGWASH!!

Pastoral conviction is what got all this mess started in the first place. Preachers should stick to the Word and preach modesty. From there they need to leave it up to God and each of His children to decide where those lines of modesty will be drawn. Clothing choices are a matter of personal conviction.


Now I can say I added at least one post to this thread.

There will always be several types of convictions.

First is personal convictions. These are things the church has no official position about but you feel it isn't right for you. Like music. Some Christians like southern gospel others like contemporary Christian and so on. But we wouldn't force personal tastes in music on anyone.

Then there are family convictions. Maybe uncle Ben was a big gambler and some very terrible things happened, so the family has a conviction against getting involved with play cards. Other families might like to play a little harmless game of Texas Hold 'em...but not the first family...they have convictions against it.

Then there are pastoral or church convictions. Some pastors are convicted about the image facial hair might bring, so they have a platform standard against facial hair. Or they might have other platform standards for those serving on the platform and/or leadership. Even some doctrinal positions are in this category...like the Rapture. Some are Pre-Trib other pastors might be Post-Trib. Wedding rings are here too. Some use them and allow them among the ministry of the church...others don't. When serving in a church it's important to choose your pastor wisely, you must be able to submit to their ministry in your life and the lives of you family.

Then there are organizational convictions. For example UPCI has stated a conviction against Preterism. For the most part we view it as false doctrine. The UPCI has a conviction against members owning a television so for the most part licensed ministers are expected to abide by that standard. Sometimes these standards change as the organization changes. Other organizations may not have a standard against television, for example the ALJC. These standards help with building fellowship of like minded ministers.

Then there are biblical convictions. Some things are just flat out condemned in the Bible. For example the Ten Commandments condemn specific sins. Modesty is commanded. Hair standards are in the Bible. Two people might disagree with something mentioned in the Bible, like hair, but regardless of interpretation...the subject is addressed in the pages of holy writ.

This isn't a formal requirement...there doesn't have to be several forms of convictions. But given human nature these convictions typically form involuntarily.

Originally Posted by Encryptus

Interesting. Institutionalized double standards.

Think it will catch on????

LOL

The point is modesty and understanding limitations. I know of one woman who wears pants on occasion and she's allowed to be a greeter, but she normally wears a skirt when she greets. I don't know if the pastor would allow her to sing or minister on the platform. My pastor believes in working with people. Sometimes it takes time for people to make certain adjustments. If they have a heart to serve for the most part I think he lets them...because as they serve and grow closer to the Lord they are led by HIM to make certain changes. For example this lady used to wear jewelry and makeup too. But she hasn't been for a while now. No body has made her. No body told her, "You can't greet unless you do this...or you do that...". We work with people and help them grow in God. That's what it's about, at least that's how it seems at my church.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

There will always be several types of convictions.

First is personal convictions. These are things the church has no official position about but you feel it isn't right for you. Like music. Some Christians like southern gospel others like contemporary Christian and so on. But we wouldn't force personal tastes in music on anyone.

Then there are family convictions. Maybe uncle Ben was a big gambler and some very terrible things happened, so the family has a conviction against getting involved with play cards. Other families might like to play a little harmless game of Texas Hold 'em...but not the first family...they have convictions against it.

Then there are pastoral or church convictions. Some pastors are convicted about the image facial hair might bring, so they have a platform standard against facial hair. Or they might have other platform standards for those serving on the platform and/or leadership. Even some doctrinal positions are in this category...like the Rapture. Some are Pre-Trib other pastors might be Post-Trib. Wedding rings are here too. Some use them and allow them among the ministry of the church...others don't. When serving in a church it's important to choose your pastor wisely, you must be able to submit to their ministry in your life and the lives of you family.

Then there are organizational convictions. For example UPCI has stated a conviction against Preterism. For the most part we view it as false doctrine. The UPCI has a conviction against members owning a television so for the most part licensed ministers are expected to abide by that standard. Sometimes these standards change as the organization changes. Other organizations may not have a standard against television, for example the ALJC. These standards help with building fellowship of like minded ministers.

Then there are biblical convictions. Some things are just flat out condemned in the Bible. For example the Ten Commandments condemn specific sins. Modesty is commanded. Hair standards are in the Bible. Two people might disagree with something mentioned in the Bible, like hair, but regardless of interpretation...the subject is addressed in the pages of holy writ.

This isn't a formal requirement...there doesn't have to be several forms of convictions. But given human nature these convictions typically form involuntarily.

If a pastor wants to have convictions about areas that fall within the realm of his authority, then I have no problem whatsoever with it. If he wants me to shave my beard because I am up front on the platform, NO PROBLEM. The minute he thinks he tell me I can't have a beard, or my wife has to wear a dress, and I'm not part of the platform crew, is when he and I are going to butt heads and I am going to tell him the clothes I wear are NONE OF HIS BUSINESS.

Originally Posted by Rico

If a pastor wants to have convictions about areas that fall within the realm of his authority, then I have no problem whatsoever with it. If he wants me to shave my beard because I am up front on the platform, NO PROBLEM. The minute he thinks he tell me I can't have a beard, or my wife has to wear a dress, and I'm not part of the platform crew, is when he and I are going to butt heads and I am going to tell him the clothes I wear are NONE OF HIS BUSINESS.

Just remember, he can preach what he believes will please God...you might be rather uncomfortable in some churches.

[Sherri]

A pastor has a right to require a dress code for anyone in a position of ministry in his church; that's his call. We have a dress code for anyone on the platform or teaching in any class, but we don't expect everyone to live by that code all week. It's for a uniform, modest appearance at church. What they do outside of church is left up to them and God. Hopefully they have enough Holy Ghost to be modest and holy at all times!

Speaking of UPC changing..............we were at the movies last night, and there were several Pentecostal people there. I think that is a "standard" that must have fallen by the wayside since we left.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Mark

Another reason why I think a change is coming is because I see people living 2 different ways. I still have contact with many people in the UPC church where I received the HG. I look at their Facebook pictures and I see them dressing totally different outside of church. I think sooner or later they will not want to keep this up.

25 years ago when we left the UPC we still had many friends and close family in it (still do). The first few years my wife ran herself ragged trying to reconform to UPC expectations in her dress and appearance anytime we were visiting relatives and went to a UPC church.

She had good intentions as she did not want to offend but after awhile it got to the point where it was being doubleminded (or at least acting doubleminded) more than anything.

The last time she did it was visiting her home church for a Sunday night service while we were in town visiting relatives. She had taken her fingernail polish off, had minimal makeup on, and had taken off her earrings and all of her jewelry except for her wedding ring. She even put her cut hair up in her old UPC swoop / bun thing.

Things were find until we were standing during the altar call and I looked down to see she was wearing open toed shows and had forgotten she had red toenail polish on.

Then the feces really hit the fan when a lady there that she had known a long time came up to her and tried to get her to go to the altar, telling her that she was not going to let her "go the ways of the devil".

This woman had not seen my wife but once or twice in years and had no clue as to her spiritual condition. She just knew we were going to an exUPC "liberal" church.

My wife calmly but firmly told this lady he spiritual condition was just fine. That she had a great church, great pastor, and great wak with God.

After that service I told my wife that she had to live and dress by her convictions and understanding of God's word and that it should not change drastically just because she was going to be visiting a UPC church.

She is sensitive to major no-no's in UPC churches like wearing pants, sleeveless dresses, etc but she does not change her makeup, hairstyle, or jewelry just to try and cross some legalistic man made hurdle.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Sherri

A pastor has a right to require a dress code for anyone in a position of ministry in his church; that's his call. We have a dress code for anyone on the platform or teaching in any class, but we don't expect everyone to live by that code all week. It's for a uniform, modest appearance at church. What they do outside of church is left up to them and God. Hopefully they have enough Holy Ghost to be modest and holy at all times!

Speaking of UPC changing..............we were at the movies last night, and there were several Pentecostal people there. I think that is a "standard" that must have fallen by the wayside since we left.

I can vouch for this. Unlike Pastor Tribble Eddie and Sherri absolutely do not allow any tube tops on the platform.