What does having the Holy Spirit mean?

[Truly Blessed]

Can someone prove that the 3000 who responded to Peter's message on the Day of Pentecost spoke with other tongues?

We have Luke carefully recording that the 120 spoke with tongues of men on the Day of Pentecost, yet 3000 people speak in an unknown tongue and it gets no attention at all? He is careful to mention those receiving Peter's message were baptized but no mention of tongues. In chapter 4 another 2000 men believe, so that the number of men now believing the gospel has increased to 5000 men, yet once again no mention is made of anyone speaking in other tongues. Why would you be so careful to record a phenomena that happened among 120, yet 5000 men speaking in an unknown tongues gets no attention?

In Acts 10 Luke is careful to record that a household of people spoke with other tongues. In Acts 19 Luke is careful to record that 12 disciples of John spoke with other tongues. Yet, this same Luke doesn't consider it newsworthy that 5000 people have spoken with other tongues? Even in Acts 8:17 where a multitude of people received the gift of the Holy Spirit when Peter and John laid hands on them, Luke once again sees no reason to get excited enough about such a multitude all speaking with other tongues to bother recording it. I find this amazing!

I have yet to hear anyone give a satisfactory explanation as to how sinners can be so miraculously transformed and used of God to bring deliverance to others, over a period of years, yet not even be born again according to the "not born again until you speak in tongues" teaching.

[OGIA]

Telling someone they have to speak in tongues to be saved is like telling them they have to get wet to be saved.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Can someone prove that the 3000 who responded to Peter's message on the Day of Pentecost spoke with other tongues?

We have Luke carefully recording that the 120 spoke with tongues of men on the Day of Pentecost, yet 3000 people speak in an unknown tongue and it gets no attention at all? He is careful to mention those receiving Peter's message were baptized but no mention of tongues. In chapter 4 another 2000 men believe, so that the number of men now believing the gospel has increased to 5000 men, yet once again no mention is made of anyone speaking in other tongues. Why would you be so careful to record a phenomena that happened among 120, yet 5000 men speaking in an unknown tongues gets no attention?

In Acts 10 Luke is careful to record that a household of people spoke with other tongues. In Acts 19 Luke is careful to record that 12 disciples of John spoke with other tongues. Yet, this same Luke doesn't consider it newsworthy that 5000 people have spoken with other tongues? Even in Acts 8:17 where a multitude of people received the gift of the Holy Spirit when Peter and John laid hands on them, Luke once again sees no reason to get excited enough about such a multitude all speaking with other tongues to bother recording it. I find this amazing!

I have yet to hear anyone give a satisfactory explanation as to how sinners can be so miraculously transformed and used of God to bring deliverance to others, over a period of years, yet not even be born again according to the "not born again until you speak in tongues" teaching.

TB, it was always explained to me that Luke had already written that they received the Holy Ghost and spoke, so in those places where he was silent about tongues, as it would have been inconsistent for some to speak when the Spirit came and others not, he felt no need to repeat it everytime. In other words, it could be considered as fact that if they spoke at Pentecost in an upper room, they spoke everytime someone was filled.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Can someone prove that the 3000 who responded to Peter's message on the Day of Pentecost spoke with other tongues?

We have Luke carefully recording that the 120 spoke with tongues of men on the Day of Pentecost, yet 3000 people speak in an unknown tongue and it gets no attention at all? He is careful to mention those receiving Peter's message were baptized but no mention of tongues. In chapter 4 another 2000 men believe, so that the number of men now believing the gospel has increased to 5000 men, yet once again no mention is made of anyone speaking in other tongues. Why would you be so careful to record a phenomena that happened among 120, yet 5000 men speaking in an unknown tongues gets no attention?

In Acts 10 Luke is careful to record that a household of people spoke with other tongues. In Acts 19 Luke is careful to record that 12 disciples of John spoke with other tongues. Yet, this same Luke doesn't consider it newsworthy that 5000 people have spoken with other tongues? Even in Acts 8:17 where a multitude of people received the gift of the Holy Spirit when Peter and John laid hands on them, Luke once again sees no reason to get excited enough about such a multitude all speaking with other tongues to bother recording it. I find this amazing!

I have yet to hear anyone give a satisfactory explanation as to how sinners can be so miraculously transformed and used of God to bring deliverance to others, over a period of years, yet not even be born again according to the "not born again until you speak in tongues" teaching.

"Prove it to me!"

This post is a great example of the attitude one has to have to disbelieve. It is likened unto doubting Thomas, or those that sought a sign of Jesus in the midst of his fulfilling the very letters of their Holy Books.

There they were, all the proof in the world written out for them, and they missed him standing right in front of them.

Thomas wouldn't even believe his contemporaries when they all told them that the Lord had risen.

John 20

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

What an attitude to take. Look at how Jesus handled it. Interesting to me that Thomas had to disbelieve in their company for eight days. I imagine he went for some long walks.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You see TB, not all was written in the New Testament, however what is written is given that we might believe. There are no guarantees. The Word falls on all kinds of ground.

Jesus had an interesting way of revealing himself and teaching.

Let's take a look at John 10.

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make F22 us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, 40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. 41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 42 And many believed on him there.
Jesus teaches some here and not only do they not believe, they want to kill him. He teaches others and they both see and follow.

Why did he teach in proverbs and parables? Matthew 13.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Even Paul, being full and inspired by the Holy Ghost, was a difficult one to understand.

2 Peter 3

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

So, getting back to the material of your post.

The evidence of tongues as an elemental aspect of Spiritual Baptism is sound, yet not mentioned in redundancy. It's not needful.

Do I need to refer to all the gifts of the Spirit, or the fruits thereof every time I refer to the terms? Not if you've already been taught what they are.

You suggest that because there is not pure and complete redundancy that it is not provable.

You demand that since these large outpourings aren't laid out to your satisfaction, then they didn't speak in tongues. Well now, where is the proof that they repented? It's not mentioned, yet their experience is seen and manifest in their subsequent ACTS.

I have yet to hear anyone give a satisfactory explanation as to how sinners can be so miraculously transformed and used of God to bring deliverance to others, over a period of years, yet not even be born again according to the "not born again until you speak in tongues" teaching.

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christendom is full of those that do wonderful things and follow some scripture, yet the Lord has not known them. I find this amazing.

Originally Posted by Barb

TB, it was always explained to me that Luke had already written that they received the Holy Ghost and spoke, so in those places where he was silent about tongues, as it would have been inconsistent for some to speak when the Spirit came and others not, he felt no need to repeat it everytime. In other words, it could be considered as fact that if they spoke at Pentecost in an upper room, they spoke everytime someone was filled.

Precisely!

[Felicity]

But the problem is ....... it's not really a very good explanation. (referring to the one Barb has always been given)

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Felicity

But the problem is ....... it's not really a very good explanation. (referring to the one Barb has always been given)

In the light of all that has come to my understanding of late, this may be so, sis...it's just the one that has been presented to me.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

"Prove it to me!"

This post is a great example of the attitude one has to have to disbelieve. It is likened unto doubting Thomas, or those that sought a sign of Jesus in the midst of his fulfilling the very letters of their Holy Books.

There they were, all the proof in the world written out for them, and they missed him standing right in front of them.

Thomas wouldn't even believe his contemporaries when they all told them that the Lord had risen.

John 20

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

What an attitude to take. Look at how Jesus handled it. Interesting to me that Thomas had to disbelieve in their company for eight days. I imagine he went for some long walks.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You see TB, not all was written in the New Testament, however what is written is given that we might believe. There are no guarantees. The Word falls on all kinds of ground.

Jesus had an interesting way of revealing himself and teaching.

Let's take a look at John 10.

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make F22 us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, 40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. 41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 42 And many believed on him there.
Jesus teaches some here and not only do they not believe, they want to kill him. He teaches others and they both see and follow.

Why did he teach in proverbs and parables? Matthew 13.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Even Paul, being full and inspired by the Holy Ghost, was a difficult one to understand.

2 Peter 3

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

So, getting back to the material of your post.

The evidence of tongues as an elemental aspect of Spiritual Baptism is sound, yet not mentioned in redundancy. It's not needful.

Do I need to refer to all the gifts of the Spirit, or the fruits thereof every time I refer to the terms? Not if you've already been taught what they are.

You suggest that because there is not pure and complete redundancy that it is not provable.

You demand that since these large outpourings aren't laid out to your satisfaction, then they didn't speak in tongues. Well now, where is the proof that they repented? It's not mentioned, yet their experience is seen and manifest in their subsequent ACTS.



Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christendom is full of those that do wonderful things and follow some scripture, yet the Lord has not known them. I find this amazing.

But why do you say this?! Should we not be ready to give a reason or an answer?! Is it a spirit of rebellion or a bad attitude which asks questions or needs scriptural proof?!

I think not...

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Barb

In the light of all that has come to my understanding of late, this may be so, sis...it's just the one that has been presented to me.

Yes, I know. But it doesn't really make sense particularly in view of the fact Luke was a "detail" man and wouldn't neglect to mention something so important.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Yes, I know. But it doesn't really make sense particularly in view of the fact Luke was a "detail" man and wouldn't neglect to mention something so important.

Yes, I understand what you are saying...