WPF in talks with Philippines UPC

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You might want to get an updated directory - he's gone. Though I'm sure that he would love to hear from everyone on the Internet; just not all at once.

Thus proving that allegations made here on AFF were false.

How many times did we hear that these men were forming the WPF while holding UPCI credentials?

Obviously if LB is not in the directory, he either sent in his resignation or let his dues lapse which would have been Oct. 1 for the last quarter.

Can't wait to see all the apologies soon to be posted.

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Jekyll,

Do you really want to go there on this one?

Yes, everyone denied it was taking place.

By the way, your acerbic online personality is getting very old, very fast.

If you disagree - just say so.

Don't make it personal.

Besides, why do you visit here if you think it's so horrible?

I don't think it's been answered, and, btw, I was responding to another post, not bringing it up anew.

Not everyone denied it was taking place.

I don't see how anything was personal. Let me know what you had in mind so I can disagree or do whatever it is you would like me to do.

Reporting live from the Philippines.
Steve Buxton, Johnny King and C. Harris have been active in the Philippines and are now gone. Just one week before the General Conference.
Brother Buxton contacted the Vice President of the UPC in the Philippines before coming and the leader he spoke to said, “We are very troubled by what we have been hearing. Before you go anywhere in the Philippines we are asking you to come to Headquarters and speak to our General Superintendant before you go anywhere else.”
This request was not headed as the three WPF members had at least one meeting in Manila. It was reported that the ministers in these meetings were 30 percent current UPC members, 30 percent ex-UPC and 40 percent independent. It was not immediately known how many, if any, joined the WPF.
After these meetings, Vice President Art Martinez, Metro Manila District Superintendant Celadonio Ompad, met with Johnny King and Steve Buxton. In this meeting the national leaders voiced their very strong criticism of both Johnny King and Steve Buxton in this current endeavor.
Brother King tried to assure them that he was NOT leaving the UPC and that the WPF was NOT an organization. He tried to explain that he was a General Board Member and did not want to hurt the work in the Philippines. The national leaders told them that their current involvement in the Philippines was only a source of confusion. They asked them what was the purpose of this visit and the answers were not satisfactory. They expressed their concern that Brother King’s considerable good will that has been built up over several years of involvement here would be damaged.
There were some other private things mentioned and will not be included here.
Then the discussion turned to Steve Buxton. They voiced their strong displeasure about the Pentecom article in which Steve Buxton erroneously reported his missionary efforts in Bohol. They said that the Philippine members were very displeased by that article. Steve Buxton replied, “Who gave them the article?” They replied, “That does not matter, what matters is that the article is totally false.” Buxton blamed it on the interviewer. He said that the “interviewer got the whole story wrong.” The national leaders then said, “If that is the case then you need to write a new article and set the record straight.”
There will be plenty more to report later as more information is confirmed from the National Leaders.

[TrueNorth]

Anybody got the Pentecom article and able to post it?

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by MissionsJD

Reporting live from the Philippines.
Steve Buxton, Johnny King and C. Harris have been active in the Philippines and are now gone. Just one week before the General Conference.
Brother Buxton contacted the Vice President of the UPC in the Philippines before coming
After these meetings, Vice President Art Martinez, Metro Manila District Superintendant Celadonio Ompad, met with Johnny King and Steve Buxton.

Where is the stealth in this???

Must be nice to speak for "most logical people".

Originally Posted by MissionsJD

This request was not headed as the three WPF members had at least one meeting in Manila. It was reported that the ministers in these meetings were 30 percent current UPC members, 30 percent ex-UPC and 40 percent independent. It was not immediately known how many, if any, joined the WPF.

So at least 70% of the pastors they met are not UPCI. Apparently 40% have never been associated with the UPC.

I wonder if any of the 30% who were UPC originally were independent or from other denominations before becoming UPC and if anyone contacted their former associates before talking to them about the UPC.

Just trying to be logical and equitable.

Originally Posted by embonpoint

Where is the stealth in this???

Must be nice to speak for "most logical people".



So at least 70% of the pastors they met are not UPCI. Apparently 40% have never been associated with the UPC.

I wonder if any of the 30% who were UPC originally were independent or from other denominations before becoming UPC and if anyone contacted their former associates before talking to them about the UPC.

Just trying to be logical and equitable.

I am not sure where the word "stealth" came into their invovlement in the Philippines. However, the meeting with UPC leaders was after they had already met with various UPC pastors.
The UPC leaders are asking a couple of questions; Why are you meeting with our pastors in the first place? Are you an organization or not? If you are an organization, are you with us or against us?

None of these questions were answered.

The leaders had wanted to know the WPF member's positions before they conducted their meetings in Bohol. However they did not heed the request of the UPC leaders in the Philippines and bypassed the Philippine headquarters.

Independants meeting with independants does not even cause a ripple, (they have every right to do so, of course) but UPC General Board Members who meet with even one UPC pastor under questionable conditions, does.
The Philippine leaders have all visited the WPF web site and have made their own minds up on what the WPF is.

After speaking to several pastors in the Philippines, the percieved purpose of this meeting was to speak negatively about the UPC. Whether this was the case or not, I can't tell, what I can say is that when the "Foreign Missions Director" and one of the "Foreign Missions Committee Members" of the WPF visit a foreign country, confusion is the result.

What is the ultimate purpose of this anyway if they are still members of the UPC?

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by MissionsJD

I am not sure where the word "stealth" came into their invovlement in the Philippines. However, the meeting with UPC leaders was after they had already met with various UPC pastors.
The UPC leaders are asking a couple of questions; Why are you meeting with our pastors in the first place? Are you an organization or not? If you are an organization, are you with us or against us?

None of these questions were answered.

The leaders had wanted to know the WPF member's positions before they conducted their meetings in Bohol. However they did not heed the request of the UPC leaders in the Philippines and bypassed the Philippine headquarters.

Independants meeting with independants does not even cause a ripple, (they have every right to do so, of course) but UPC General Board Members who meet with even one UPC pastor under questionable conditions, does.
The Philippine leaders have all visited the WPF web site and have made their own minds up on what the WPF is.

After speaking to several pastors in the Philippines, the percieved purpose of this meeting was to speak negatively about the UPC. Whether this was the case or not, I can't tell, what I can say is that when the "Foreign Missions Director" and one of the "Foreign Missions Committee Members" of the WPF visit a foreign country, confusion is the result.

What is the ultimate purpose of this anyway if they are still members of the UPC?

This is simply not a true report! I do not doubt you may have been told this, however it is simply not true.

As you stated in your previous post, SB contacted the UPCI officials prior to coming to the Philippines, and ask for meetings with them. The first meeting which was held on Wednesday was called by myself, (and was the reason I was present)(SB and JK were not even there until the afternoon) with approx. 50 independent pastors, and some of their spouses, whom I have been working with for years. When the word of this meeting was spread, there were several UPCI pastors (about 6) who showed up uninvited by us "because they had heard that there was division in the states" and they made an assumption that we could provide them some answers. In this meeting One of the first things that I told them, (because they had already ask me privately) was that we were not there to discuss the UPCI Philippines nor UPCI North America, and from that point on nothing further was discussed, (about either) until we had a question and answer session in the afternoon. At that time some of the UPCI pastors tried to get us (SB and myself) to give answers concerning our thoughts about the direction of the UPCI and neither of us at any time spoke negatively in any way. In fact when Bro. King heard there were UPCI ministers present he only greeted this group of brethren for 2-3 minutes and left, as he had not yet met with the UPCI officials.

That Evening, (Wednesday) SB was scheduled to speak at a service (per my request) of these independent pastors, and cancelled leaving me to speak for them, as he and Bro. King were meeting with some of the UPCI Philippine officials. Never was the UPCI Philippine headquarters bypassed nor ignored.

My question to you MissionJD is, the "several pastors" you have spoken with, and who have given you their "perception" of the purpose of the meetings, were they present at the meetings? Did they hear anything negative said about the UPCI? And further if you "can't tell" whether that is the case or not, why would you spread it around so as to perpetuate something that you yourself have admitted you don't know is truth?

Again as it relates to Bohol, SB has been holding crusades there for several years, has invested much time and money in the work there, he did not start the works, however, he has invested greatly in the ministry of Bohol, and I think it would be safe to say has been instrumental in seeing a great increase of ministry there. Why should anything change now? The UPCI has never declined outside missions help before that I am aware of. The church I pastored (independent) sent monies into FMD and was never told because you are not UPCI you have to stop giving, and I have been invited by UPCI missionaries to come and minister in their countries even when I was not UPCI. Quite honestly, the ministers of Bohol probably do not even know if I am UPCI or not, because it was not even discussed. We were in Bohol to plan for the September crusades and we taught and ministered to the pastors. Not one time was the UPCI or WPF mentioned in our sessions as that was not our purpose for being there. Why should SB have to stop supporting and holding crusades now just because he may have left the UPCI. Can the lost of Bohol only be saved by the UPCI's efforts. Talk about a double standard........we want to reach the world at any cost.........but only if it is through our (UPCI) efforts.

Please understand the spirit in which I write. I love and respect the UPCI, its leadership, and its members, however, I have become quite tired of the allegations which are unfounded, just because some have chosen to leave the organization. Souls is all of our jobs, and these petty differences should not hinder winning the lost. Even Jesus told his disciples “Don’t stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:50) And in all of the time I have been associated with SB, not one time have I heard him speak negatively of the UPCI, its leadership, or its members.

Respectfully Submitted

[Admin]

This thread was closed due to disruptive posts. It has been cleaned up and reopened.

Let's stick to the subject and refrain from personal posts.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by bishoph

This is simply not a true report! I do not doubt you may have been told this, however it is simply not true.

As you stated in your previous post, SB contacted the UPCI officials prior to coming to the Philippines, and ask for meetings with them. The first meeting which was held on Wednesday was called by myself, (and was the reason I was present)(SB and JK were not even there until the afternoon) with approx. 50 independent pastors, and some of their spouses, whom I have been working with for years. When the word of this meeting was spread, there were several UPCI pastors (about 6) who showed up uninvited by us "because they had heard that there was division in the states" and they made an assumption that we could provide them some answers. In this meeting One of the first things that I told them, (because they had already ask me privately) was that we were not there to discuss the UPCI Philippines nor UPCI North America, and from that point on nothing further was discussed, (about either) until we had a question and answer session in the afternoon. At that time some of the UPCI pastors tried to get us (SB and myself) to give answers concerning our thoughts about the direction of the UPCI and neither of us at any time spoke negatively in any way. In fact when Bro. King heard there were UPCI ministers present he only greeted this group of brethren for 2-3 minutes and left, as he had not yet met with the UPCI officials.

That Evening, (Wednesday) SB was scheduled to speak at a service (per my request) of these independent pastors, and cancelled leaving me to speak for them, as he and Bro. King were meeting with some of the UPCI Philippine officials. Never was the UPCI Philippine headquarters bypassed nor ignored.

My question to you MissionJD is, the "several pastors" you have spoken with, and who have given you their "perception" of the purpose of the meetings, were they present at the meetings? Did they hear anything negative said about the UPCI? And further if you "can't tell" whether that is the case or not, why would you spread it around so as to perpetuate something that you yourself have admitted you don't know is truth?

Again as it relates to Bohol, SB has been holding crusades there for several years, has invested much time and money in the work there, he did not start the works, however, he has invested greatly in the ministry of Bohol, and I think it would be safe to say has been instrumental in seeing a great increase of ministry there. Why should anything change now? The UPCI has never declined outside missions help before that I am aware of. The church I pastored (independent) sent monies into FMD and was never told because you are not UPCI you have to stop giving, and I have been invited by UPCI missionaries to come and minister in their countries even when I was not UPCI. Quite honestly, the ministers of Bohol probably do not even know if I am UPCI or not, because it was not even discussed. We were in Bohol to plan for the September crusades and we taught and ministered to the pastors. Not one time was the UPCI or WPF mentioned in our sessions as that was not our purpose for being there. Why should SB have to stop supporting and holding crusades now just because he may have left the UPCI. Can the lost of Bohol only be saved by the UPCI's efforts. Talk about a double standard........we want to reach the world at any cost.........but only if it is through our (UPCI) efforts.

Please understand the spirit in which I write. I love and respect the UPCI, its leadership, and its members, however, I have become quite tired of the allegations which are unfounded, just because some have chosen to leave the organization. Souls is all of our jobs, and these petty differences should not hinder winning the lost. Even Jesus told his disciples “Don’t stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:50) And in all of the time I have been associated with SB, not one time have I heard him speak negatively of the UPCI, its leadership, or its members.

Respectfully Submitted

I have read you post, and appreciate your tone. This is a difficult subject, I must admit. I will be writting more and more in the next new days as I will actually be speaking with the Pastors from Bohol, and the men who were at the meeting with you and Buxton.
I tried to be as honest as possible, by stating that theis were "perceptions" and were only reports from second hand sources.

I hear in your comments a sincere desire to give Steve Buxton the benifit of the doubt in Bohol. However, in the next coulple of days, I will reprint the entire Pentecom Article in which Steve Buxton related his Bohol experiences. I read it again last night and was still flabbergasted by how way off base it was. It had incredible detail, and then Buxton blames the false items on the "interveiwer." You will see for yourself, but I beg a few days to get that all done.

I do not know you personally, and am sure you are doing a wounderful work for the Lord. With all I know now, I cheer you on. The issue remains this fracture known as WPF. It is not easily quatified and categorised. Therefore confusion riegns, and is even magnified on a missions feild.

The leaders here are kind, loving, gentle Christians, but if they feel that there is a concerted effort to divide the church, another side of them comes out. Their will be righteous warfare waged against those whose motives are less than pur.
I trust we will be able reach an understanding through this forum.