The Initial Physical Evidence

Originally Posted by mizpeh

To some Trinitarians it means the same thing, although I think you believe in the plan of God Christ was begotten before all worlds, just as the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, is that correct?

Yes, to many Trinitarians it means the same thing. I happen to disagree with them and believe that "eternally begotten" is an oxymoron (because it suggests that not only has the Son been in the process of being begotten throughout all of eternity "past" but will continue to be in the process of being eternally begotten throughout all of eternity "future"). I believe the phrase that was translated "begotten before all worlds" is most likely being used in the same sense that Revelation says the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world.

Originally Posted by tbpew

At some point I really hope I learn how to interact with the line of thought that says "No where in the bible does it say [insert any exact set of words strung together]".

We must engage the Spirit to lead us and guide us in the scriptures, otherwise we will be ever studying and never coming into any knowledge of truth.

Many parse the scriptures to wrestle with whether you must be Born Again, then among those, wrestling may involve whether being born again involves a birth of water and a birth of spirit, then among those who believe in a birth of spirit, we will wrestle with whether tongues are an initial physical evidence of this new birth.

Apparently the bible ALONE can be a "party zone" for the wisdom of men and their philosophies to have endless rhetoric. Apparently, the answer involves something more than JUST the SCRIPTURES.

I am hopeful that most of us will come to appreciate the "two key" system God has provided; they that will serve me MUST serve me in Spirit AND in Truth.

We must always be careful about our claim that the Bible says this or that - and I don't mean necessarily a particular combination of words. The fact of the matter is that tongues as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism is an assumption that people are making - an interpretation of scripture. There's nothing wrong with that but we really do need to be clear that what we're saying is really our interpretation of scripture and not the scripture itself. As for this so-called "two key" system, what are you talking about? Where does the Bible say God has provided a "two key" system? Your statement is an example of what I'm talking about. You said God provided a "two key" system yet there is nothing in the Bible that indicates He did any such thing. You must admit that your notion of a "two key" system is really nothing more than your interpretation if scripture.

You said, "We must engage the Spirit to lead us and guide us in the scriptures, otherwise we will be ever studying and never coming into any knowledge of truth." This is apparently a sarcastic barb posted in your objection to my statement "Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm. THERE IS NO PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS TONGUES IS THE INITIAL EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST."

Yes, one role of the Spirit is to lead us into all truth. That does not, however, give us the right to claim that the Bible says something it does not say. We might feel a particular interpretation of scripture is what the Spirit is showing us but we must admit that it is still nothing more than an interpretation of scripture. To elevate our interpretations to the level of scripture, as you appear to be suggesting, is essentially the Roman Catholic heresy of elevating Church tradition to (or above) the level of scripture.

I'm sorry that you can't tell the difference between scripture and a mere interpretation of scripture.

[tbpew]

Chan,
my reply was completely established in years of listening to countless students of the word either use microscopic greek text and tenses OR folks who say, "show me where the bible says".

The two key system (that you assume I invented from interpretation) was based on the witness I included with the statement; they that worship me (I used the word "serve") must worship me in Spirit and Truth.

That, Chan, using my vast skills of interpretation, is TWO things.

The Spirit leading and guiding us in all truth is TWO things at work TOGETHER--TRUTH and SPIRIT.

The letter really does kill, but is the letter BAD? of course not.

That was my point. Thank you for being sorry about my condition involving interpretation.

I have NOT found any way to read words without interpreting their message to me, the reader. Once interpretation is needed, I need to seek the second key (the Spirit) to lead me.

Originally Posted by tbpew

Chan,
my reply was completely established in years of listening to countless students of the word either use microscopic greek text and tenses OR folks who say, "show me where the bible says".

And in so doing, you seemingly presume that it's wrong to insist on being accurate about what the word of God says.

The two key system (that you assume I invented from interpretation) was based on the witness I included with the statement; they that worship me (I used the word "serve") must worship me in Spirit and Truth.

Whether you invented it or not, I don't know but I did suggest that it was an interpretation and I understood that the "keys" you were referring to were worshiping God in Spirit and in truth. What I wanted to know was how you got "two keys" out of that passage.

That, Chan, using my vast skills of interpretation, is TWO things.

The Spirit leading and guiding us in all truth is TWO things at work TOGETHER--TRUTH and SPIRIT.

I don't know how vast your interpretation skills are since you're trying to connect the work of the Spirit in leading us into all truth (the scripture says nothing about guiding) to us worshiping God in Spirit and in truth.

The letter really does kill, but is the letter BAD? of course not.

Agreed. However, Paul did not intend this for us to have license to just make up stuff and claim it's what the Bible says.

[quote]That was my point. Thank you for being sorry about my condition involving interpretation.

I have NOT found any way to read words without interpreting their message to me, the reader. Once interpretation is needed, I need to seek the second key (the Spirit) to lead me.

What do you mean by interpreting? There is the act of explaining the meaning of something and there is the act of conceiving in the light of individual belief, judgment or circumstance. (See http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/interpret). There is a difference between either one of these and merely comprehending the words one is reading and I think you're confusing reading comprehension with interpretation.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Chan

And in so doing, you seemingly presume that it's wrong to insist on being accurate about what the word of God says.
......
What do you mean by interpreting? There is the act of explaining the meaning of something and there is the act of conceiving in the light of individual belief, judgment or circumstance. (See http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/interpret). There is a difference between either one of these and merely comprehending the words one is reading and I think you're confusing reading comprehension with interpretation.

Chan, If you think that God's blessing contained within the Holy Scriptures does NOT require interpretation by the reader, I will have to emphatically disagree with you.

Interpretation is the norm rather than the exception. Its a given. Its part of what makes the scriptures divinely inspired.

Just to help set the stage for why I feel this way:

"let your moderation be known unto all men"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee:"
INTREPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL for some!

....and as for "guiding" with leading
Psalms 31 speaks of our great God's blessing in our journey;

For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.

I need the Spirit to lead me in all truth.
The truth is the scripture.
Otherwise I will just have a bunch of men to tell me what the bible says and does not say.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Gal. 3:2 The apostle Paul was grieved with those who thought they earned the spirit. Let me paraphrase. "Galatians, please let me know, just how did you got the Holy Ghost? Did you recieve it by any good thing you did, OR BY HEARING THE GOSPEL AND HAVING FAITH?"

Now I know you'll say that all he was speaking to had spoke in tongues. That is an assumption that has no proof in scripture.

Rememeber Faith cometh by hearing. The galatians were reminded that they had heard the gospel, believed the gospel and had thereby received the spirit by faith.

Paul was grieved with those who were getting circumcised and trying to live after the law of Moses after they had been saved by faith in Christ. Paul's question had a clear answer, they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit by the hearing of faith and NOT the works of the law just as you said. Meaning they did not have to be circumcised and keep the law with the keeping of holy days and the like to be saved. After beginning in the Spirit they WERE NOT made perfect by the flesh.

The saints in Galatia RECEIVED the Spirit by faith the same way the apostles did in Acts 2, and the Gentiles did in Acts 10, and the Samaritans did in Acts 8, and the disciples of John in Acts 19 in that they heard the word, believed, and were baptized in the Spirit with the evidence of tongues or some visible manifestation.

Anything we receive of God comes by faith ie: initial faith Ro 12:3 Ac 3:16 , repentance Ro 2:4, the Holy Ghost baptism Gal 3:2, remission of sins, even the life we now live. Ga 2:20.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

To become the children of God we must be born again of the water and the Spirit........this takes faith as well. Without faith you won't believe to be baptized etc. Mark 16:16

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I agree the Galatians received the Spirit by faith and with the witness of the book of Acts the reception of the Spirit was accompanied by a sound, speaking in tongues.

Originally Posted by tbpew

Chan, If you think that God's blessing contained within the Holy Scriptures does NOT require interpretation by the reader, I will have to emphatically disagree with you.

Interpretation is the norm rather than the exception. Its a given. Its part of what makes the scriptures divinely inspired.

Just to help set the stage for why I feel this way:

"let your moderation be known unto all men"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee:"
INTREPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL for some!

....and as for "guiding" with leading
Psalms 31 speaks of our great God's blessing in our journey;



I need the Spirit to lead me in all truth.
The truth is the scripture.
Otherwise I will just have a bunch of men to tell me what the bible says and does not say.

I just want you to acknowledge that it IS interpretation and NOT what the Bible actually says.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Chan

I just want you to acknowledge that it IS interpretation and NOT what the Bible actually says.

OK, I publicly state to you that:
When interpretation is needed, the interpretation it is NOT what the BIBLE EXACTLY SAYS. Your word was ACTUALLY says, I hope you can accept my use of the word EXACTLY, i.e. VERBATIM.

Since this is what I have been saying all along, this is why I have made the "two key" statement. The bible can not stand alone as a blessing in the readers/hearer's understanding of how to DO what it is ACTUALLY SAYING, IT MUST be understood by the leading of the Spirit.

I credit the unsearchable wisdom of our creator for constructing this system. It is fully consistent with what the word says about his character; that he is NO RESPECTOR of PERSONS.

Returning to one of my examples to further expand on the basis for my statement:
"let your moderation be known unto all men"
That is what the bible exactly(actually) says.
but without interpretation it has NO APPLICATION in the hearer's life!

We look to the context for a setting, but certainly we should ask our father in heaven for wisdom concerning his expectation of what this scripture is commanding us to do and then, do it!

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [James 1:5]

what is my moderation?
how do I make it known?
who are all men?

If there was respect of persons with God, a greek scholar or a mensa candidate might approach gaining understanding from this scriptural witness according to the training and/or capabilities of their mind, but a no respecter of persons God simply makes wisdom available to anyone who asks him for it [concerning the understanding that should be possessed].

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. [Acts 4:13]

God's word, handled alone, without the Spirit, kills.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Hi Joel. When you want to bold something, Hilite it by RIGHT clicking the mouse and dragging it to select the text. Then hit "B".

And Welcome to the forum

Hi Praxeas,You doing fine i pray. Nice seeing you.
Joelel,John