Tulsa Report Day 2

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by CC1

I have news for Steadfast. When I was a UPC teenager I saw just as many girls from "conservative" churches who "shouted" their uncut hair down in service in the back seat of cars with guys as girls from the so called liberal churches.

I have NEVER seen strict standards translate to moral behaviour in teenagers. If anything it allows them to compartmentalize what is right and wrong since they have that long laundry list of do's and don'ts. They seem to justify in their mind that if they don't cut their hair, wear makeup, go to movies, etc, etc that they can then commit sexual sin and still come out okay on the balance ledger. Not all by any measure but enough that it proves that enforced legalistic standards have squat to do with a persons morality.

We obviously are not UPC but my kids have been raised around it and spent entire summers at UPC relaitves homes and attending UPC churches. My two boys assessment is that old time Pentecostal girls are wild. Much wilder than the baptist and charismatic girls they date.

What were you doing in the front seat watching?????

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Great book.

I suppose I'll have to read it now.

I know one thing--my Daddy was never real hip on the "system" either.

My Grandpa had a conflict with Bro. Branding years back. Over a pig. It's quite a funny little story.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by Music4Jesus

There is one in the district I was raised in that recently built a 15 million dollar complex and then started losing people. So the pastor did what he felt he had to and had meetings with his leadership and said....you can start going to the movies now. sad.

They feel financial pressure and cave thinking that will bring more people.

I'm sorry but that sounds absolutely ridiculous. "We need more people so you can start going to movies???"

How firsthand was the knowledge of that statement?

And really, are there churches that have set rules like "You can't go to movies?"

My pastor teaches relationship with God and doesn't feel the need to micromanage our lives. Of course, that probably makes him a liberal.

The problem is...standards alone don't save you. People have to be taught to fall in love with Jesus Christ. When you love somebody you do what pleases them. If we love HIM, we will do what pleases HIM.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

I think I was the last preacher to meet a Louisiana District Board when C. G. Weeks was district superintendent.

Campmeeting 1978 - I had graduated from JCM that May.

I met the board for my general license Friday night just before 7pm. Weeks briefly read a note from Brother Ewing and they passed me, then talked about having to rush out to get on the platform.

That was the final night of campmeeting,

Weeks complained of chest pains after service and was brought to the hospital, where he died that night.

Tim, thanks for sharing this history. I vaguely remember Bro. Weeks as I was a young girl and we didn't get to go to camp meeting hardly ever. I didn't realize his death was rather sudden.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by CC1

I have news for Steadfast. When I was a UPC teenager I saw just as many girls from "conservative" churches who "shouted" their uncut hair down in service in the back seat of cars with guys as girls from the so called liberal churches.

I have NEVER seen strict standards translate to moral behaviour in teenagers. If anything it allows them to compartmentalize what is right and wrong since they have that long laundry list of do's and don'ts. They seem to justify in their mind that if they don't cut their hair, wear makeup, go to movies, etc, etc that they can then commit sexual sin and still come out okay on the balance ledger. Not all by any measure but enough that it proves that enforced legalistic standards have squat to do with a persons morality.

We obviously are not UPC but my kids have been raised around it and spent entire summers at UPC relaitves homes and attending UPC churches. My two boys assessment is that old time Pentecostal girls are wild. Much wilder than the baptist and charismatic girls they date.

I don't really believe that is what they think. I believe they are living their parent's religion and until they meet God for themselves they will continue to follow youthful lust. Not much different than a teenager in any religious or secular setting.

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by jrLA

Of course, there are times when your conviction outwieghs your committment to unity. I understand that. It is just that these men are not motivated by simple conviction. This organization or Fellowship has men on their general committee that ARE NOT conservative. I know for a fact. Their churches are the most liberal in the area!

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

What were you doing in the front seat watching?????

Er.....we used to all go "parking" at the same pond in my town. LOL!!!! I was, for the most part, a good boy though that didn't do the things a lot of the others were doing!

I have close friends and relatives though that have stories that are amazing!

I remember in Louisiana in the 70's there was a significanat portion of young people who reacted to the legalism by toeing the line for a few months or year or so then if they slipped up a little they would just throw in the towel and live like the devil until a youth meeting, revival, or youth camp then pray through again for yet another few months or year until they stumbled again and began to repeat the process.

I remember in particular a girl from our "moderate" church who went to live in some town where her brother was at for the summer and he attended an ultra con church. She came back condemming all the girls to hell for wearing open toed shoes, etc until she violated some little aspect of the legalism then yet once again threw in the towel and lived like the devil till the next youth camp. Ah the cycle of life.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't really believe that is what they think. I believe they are living their parent's religion and until they meet God for themselves they will continue to follow youthful lust. Not much different than a teenager in any religious or secular setting.

I agree with you on this one. Pentecostal teenagers are just like every other teenager until they choose to follow Christ.

[PastorD]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.