I posted this on another forum, and decided to post it here.
"I think that we should all study the churches of Pergamos and Thyatira in Revelations. The Ecumenical Movement parallels the problems that the two churches were having.
Jesus through John's writings did not ignore the problem. In fact, he blamed the churches for ignoring the doctrines of Balaam, Nicialatians, and Jezebel. They refused to stand against it, and talk about it, therefore it overtook them, and became the norm.
Talking about reality is not a problem. Dealing with our society issues and talking about them are not a problem. The problem is ignoring them, and pretending they do not exist.
It is interesting that in Constantine's day, many were rejoicing. Finally the church that had been persecuted had come out of the closet. They were accepted. They were enriched with possessions. They were having political influence. They ignored the lose of morals. They neglected the original Bible doctrine. They closed their eyes to the problems.
BUT also MANY were grieved. They knew that this ecumenical merging of different faith systems would destroy the bedrock on which they were built. They stood up against this system vocally, and were marginalized and persecuted for their stands.
The cries of "All is Well" in the face of what is happening in the church world (and Apostolic Movement) is unwise at best. Let us stand and vocalize our opposition to the directions and movements toward a repetition of Constantine's day in the form of Ecumenicism."
What Constantine did was merge Pagan Religion with Christian Religion for his own purposes.
He merged the trinity (a pagan concept) into church doctrine.
He brought the methods of pagan worship into the house of God. (Hence the incense burning, etc in the Catholic Church)
And much, much more.
He didn't completely change all church doctrine, but tried to reconcile both into one melting pot. That is what is happening today in Apostolic ranks.
That is what is happening today. Churches are allowing trinitarians to preach in their pulpits. They are incorporating worldly, pagan worship styles into their services. Some and welcoming Baptists, Catholics to speak at their services. And things like this.
It is interesting that Constantine was only allowed to do this by the church, due to an attitude and message of tolerance that had been propagated for years before. It had already started in the messages to the churches of Revelation, and that snowball results in the actions at the council of Nicea and Constantine.
I don't have time to post an indepth answer, but this is an overview.
That is what is happening today. Churches are allowing trinitarians to preach in their pulpits. .
How often do you think this is really happening?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentecostisalive
They are incorporating worldly, pagan worship styles into their services.
Please give example of pagan worship styles. I have seen and read documentation of pagans dancing wildly, spinning, speaking in unknown tongues, falling out, rolling around and other types of worship. Are these the things we need to get rid of in our services? Pagans have been known to have large meals together after they worship false Gods. Should we not have dinner on the grounds or pot lucks any more? Pagans are known to gather around fires and sing worship songs. Should we no longer have fellowship outside around a camp fire? Give us detailed particulars please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentecostisalive
Some and welcoming Baptists, Catholics to speak at their services. And things like this.
Are you stating that these other denominations are allowed to preach in a service or are they allowed to greet the congregation? Are they teaching false doctrine as they speak?
You seem to paint with a broad brush. Just how rampant is this among our ranks?
__________________
Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
What Constantine did was merge Pagan Religion with Christian Religion for his own purposes.
He merged the trinity (a pagan concept) into church doctrine.
He brought the methods of pagan worship into the house of God. (Hence the incense burning, etc in the Catholic Church)
And much, much more.
He didn't completely change all church doctrine, but tried to reconcile both into one melting pot. That is what is happening today in Apostolic ranks.
To be fair to the old emperor, he probably didn't really care what went on in the church as along as there was public order in the streets. Constantine was a very pragmatic man and instilled with the Roman skepticism of the Stoic tradition. Not much of a religious thinker at all.
And most RCC's would jump on you for the incense statement. They will rightly point to the Temple Worship of the Old Testament and it's use of incense. They also make a big deal about some of the prophetic visions in which incense is used copiously in the heavens. Burning incense is as pagan as kneeling in prayer - but it's also Biblical if you accept that application from the OT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentecostisalive
That is what is happening today. Churches are allowing trinitarians to preach in their pulpits. They are incorporating worldly, pagan worship styles into their services. Some and welcoming Baptists, Catholics to speak at their services. And things like this.
There was a time in the Apostolic movement when Trinitarians were the only ones allowed to preach in the pulpits simply because all Apostolics were Trinitarians. That has been slowly weeded out among the Oneness ranks, but you will still see it today. I don't see this as "backsliding" but rather as some folks simply hanging on to their older practices.
Remember, the Oneness movement is less than 100 years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentecostisalive
It is interesting that Constantine was only allowed to do this by the church, due to an attitude and message of tolerance that had been propagated for years before. It had already started in the messages to the churches of Revelation, and that snowball results in the actions at the council of Nicea and Constantine.
I don't have time to post an indepth answer, but this is an overview.
That's an interesting take. I think you misspoke when you said that the "tolerance" that you disapprove of began in the Book of Revelation. Maybe, "it was first condemned in the Book of Rev?" There were those who allowed "Jezebel" to teach, the Nicolaitans and etc.
Also, I have to say that you are flat out wrong about the "attitude and message of tolerance that had been propagated for years before;" with all due respect. The almost atheistic Constantine was the best example of "tolerance" in his day, and then it was only because peace meant prosperity in his empire. The church offered no "tolerance" and rarely did you ever hear voices of "compromise."
The church of Constantine's day was comprised of bigots of every sort and warring factions that were notorious for rioting and arson. Even though the party of Athanasius seemed to have won the day at Nicea, Athanasius himself was soon exiled after being set upon by an angry mob of anti-Trinitarians. In his old age he was finally allowed to come back home, but Constantine's successors were all Arians who opposed the doctrine of the Trinity and they persecuted "orthodoxy" up until the time of Julian the Apostate. Then Julian tried to reintroduce his own brand paganism but met with little success.
"Remember, the Oneness movement is less than 100 years old. " Pelathais...
The Oneness doctrine is over 2000 years old.
Yeah, but... actually much older than that.
He was talking about things changing and "Baptists preaching" in Oneness pulpits. That wasn't an issue 200 years ago, 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago.
What we call "Apostolic preachers" were all Trinitarians at one point 100 years ago. Some separated rather decisively into the Oneness camp- others did not. Many, like E. N. Bell sort of bounced back and forth for a while because they had a hard time seeing the difference.
When we see a similar condition today it's not a sign of "apostasy" as some want us to believe. It's just a sign that the issue hasn't settled down completely in all quarters yet. And 100 years is a pretty short time period to expect to have eveybody "lined up" correctly.
He was talking about things changing and "Baptists preaching" in Oneness pulpits. That wasn't an issue 200 years ago, 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago.
What we call "Apostolic preachers" were all Trinitarians at one point 100 years ago. Some separated rather decisively into the Oneness camp- others did not. Many, like E. N. Bell sort of bounced back and forth for a while because they had a hard time seeing the difference.
When we see a similar condition today it's not a sign of "apostasy" as some want us to believe. It's just a sign that the issue hasn't settled down completely in all quarters yet. And 100 years is a pretty short time period to expect to have eveybody "lined up" correctly.
Thank you for clarifying.
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
actually much older than that.
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